USA Wrestling Scores Another International Stud - Nodirjon Safarov

[Daniel Fox]

...so, can we call start calling Kendall Cross a creonte?

I actually met Kendall Cross in 1999, he was a really good guy, that is why it was such a shock to me when I saw him in Chamizo's corner with a Team Chamizo shirt. I wouldn't be so harsh to call him a creonte, I am just disappointed with this particular action.

 

[dsdoubled]

Regardless of who cuts the check, the RTC’s were created by USA Wrestling to uplift the US Wrestlers competing on the world stage. The current team is the best team we have had since 1992, so the program is working. I have no problem allowing foreign wrestlers to help train and teach US wrestlers to make them more versatile against other styles, in fact I would encourage it. However there are limits, allowing the number one rival, of quite possibly the greatest international Wrestler the US has ever produced, and train at one of these facilities crosses a line. Aside from Helen Maroulis, there aren’t any other team USA wrestlers training there. This goes against the whole spirit of why the Training Centers were created (like I mentioned earlier to uplift the United States Wrestling program). This is benefitting Chamizo, and Italy. I feel Burroughs has every right to be pissed. No other country would allow the top rival to train at their facilities so they can learn how to beat the countries best wrestler. I respectfully disagree.

I haven't checked the roster in a while but is it really true that Helen Maroulis is the only USA Wrestling Bigshot training there? With the coaches (Kendall Cross, Valentin Kalika, etc), the facilities (Columbia U and Edge Hoboken), and resources available to them it seems like a bit of a waste.

 

[dsdoubled]

RTCs are funded by their college or their main donors before USA wrestling. I work for Beat the Streets and help run a local youth-Hs RTC.They cut my check, I have a USA wrestling card, but the check I get is from the nonprofit organization Beat the Streets not USA wrestling.

* @Dirty Holt please correct me if I’m wrong

I would think there is quite a big difference between a high school RTC (what exactly is a high school RTC for?) and the NYC RTC, one of the biggest and best 2 wrestling facilities in the world that exists to help USAW produce world/Olympic champions. And while I know you're correct in saying the RTCs are largely funded by the college they are partnered with, the NYC RTC is also funded by USAW. They say right on the website:

The NYC RTC operates as a partnership between Columbia University, The Edge School of Wrestling (Hoboken, NJ) and USA Wrestling. Its goal is to create and develop world-class wrestling opportunities in the New York City region.

 

[dsdoubled]

I actually met Kendall Cross in 1999, he was a really good guy, that is why it was such a shock to me when I saw him in Chamizo's corner with a Team Chamizo shirt. I wouldn't be so harsh to call him a creonte, I am just disappointed with this particular action.

One thing I find kinda interesting is tthat Chamizo doesn't even meet the criteria to be a NYC RTC athlete. Obviously he's incredible and exceptions are made, but its all fairly unprecedented. The only situation I can think of as comparable is Valentin Jordanov wrestling for Foxcatcher (also an RTC) while still competing for Bulgaria.

 

[jack36767]

I would think there is quite a big difference between a high school RTC (what exactly is a high school RTC for?) and the NYC RTC, one of the biggest and best 2 wrestling facilities in the world that exists to help USAW produce world/Olympic champions. And while I know you're correct in saying the RTCs are largely funded by the college they are partnered with, the NYC RTC is also funded by USAW. They say right on the website:

The NYC RTC operates as a partnership between Columbia University, The Edge School of Wrestling (Hoboken, NJ) and USA Wrestling. Its goal is to create and develop world-class wrestling opportunities in the New York City region.

It says partnership not sponsored for a reason. Who actually cuts the checks matter. This isn’t as complicated as people are making it. It also doesn’t make someone a creonite to get the best athletes they can at their RTC or college.

And same as any RTC, get the athletes better, just on a smaller scale.

Is the whole situation ideal, probably not. But the way people are reacting is a little much

 

[Daniel Fox]

I haven't checked the roster in a while but is it really true that Helen Maroulis is the only USA Wrestling Bigshot training there? With the coaches (Kendall Cross, Valentin Kalika, etc), the facilities (Columbia U and Edge Hoboken), and resources available to them it seems like a bit of a waste.

To be fair I am sure there are young wrestlers training there, and to be able to train with those coaches is a real benefit for the kids.

 

[Dirty Holt]

I think some of you guys have the complete wrong idea about what an RTC is. Being in this system for about 5 years, I feel like I can comment.

RTC's are not centers created by USA Wrestling to uplift American wrestling. What an RTC is, is a club that is funded by the university they are attached to or club that already existed. Money goes into those clubs to support national team members who would have to train at the Olympic Training Center to get those benefits. Guys were unwilling to leave their university and train at the OTC because they would be leaving their university paycheck for assistant coaching. That was the huge problem. Zeke Jones saw this and made an effort to do extra fundraising to subsidize those athletes who were getting paid a stipend to work out with college guys.

RTC coaches such as Kendal Cross are not hired by USA wrestling, nor are they getting a check from them. They are hired by the university or club who pays the coaches to get their own guys better for domestic and international competition. They arent hired to make America better. Their main goal is to make their own wrestlers better. It blows me away that people can get angry at Kendal Cross for bringing in a world champion when is sole job function is to make the guys at his own club better. It would be like getting pissed off at Tom Brands because he brought in a foreign guy to train with his lightweights at Iowa when they train at the Hawkeye Wrestling Club. Tom Brands gets paid by UI to get his guys better. Bringing in world class talent to help his guys isnt being a traitor to USA.

BTW, you dont think foreign countries bring us in to train with them? Shit, half the time they pay us to be able to come in and train with us.

 

[Daniel Fox]

I think some of you guys have the complete wrong idea about what an RTC is. Being in this system for about 5 years, I feel like I can comment.

RTC's are not centers created by USA Wrestling to uplift American wrestling. What an RTC is, is a club that is funded by the university they are attached to or club that already existed. Money goes into those clubs to support national team members who would have to train at the Olympic Training Center to get those benefits. Guys were unwilling to leave their university and train at the OTC because they would be leaving their university paycheck for assistant coaching. That was the huge problem. Zeke Jones saw this and made an effort to do extra fundraising to subsidize those athletes who were getting paid a stipend to work out with college guys.

RTC coaches such as Kendal Cross are not hired by USA wrestling, nor are they getting a check from them. They are hired by the university or club who pays the coaches to get their own guys better for domestic and international competition. They arent hired to make America better. Their main goal is to make their own wrestlers better. It blows me away that people can get angry at Kendal Cross for bringing in a world champion when is sole job function is to make the guys at his own club better. It would be like getting pissed off at Tom Brands because he brought in a foreign guy to train with his lightweights at Iowa when they train at the Hawkeye Wrestling Club. Tom Brands gets paid by UI to get his guys better. Bringing in world class talent to help his guys isnt being a traitor to USA.

BTW, you dont think foreign countries bring us in to train with them? Shit, half the time they pay us to be able to come in and train with us.

There is a difference to bringing a guy in to train and help the wrestlers of the club get better, as opposed to bringing in a guy to help him beat the number one guy in the United States (and the world). That's what it looks like to me.

Furthermore, the ultimate goal of any wrestler is to win a World or Olympic Championship, to suggest there is no nexus between the RTC and USA Wrestling is really a stretch.

 

[jack36767]

There is a difference to bringing a guy in to train and help the wrestlers of the club get better, as opposed to bringing in a guy to help him beat the number one guy in the United States (and the world). That's what it looks like to me.

Furthermore, the ultimate goal of any wrestler is to win a World or Olympic Championship, to suggest there is no nexus between the RTC and USA Wrestling is really a stretch.

There really isn’t as much connection as you think..

 

[dsdoubled]

It would be like getting pissed off at Tom Brands because he brought in a foreign guy to train with his lightweights at Iowa when they train at the Hawkeye Wrestling Club. Tom Brands gets paid by UI to get his guys better.

I think most of us feel some kinda way about the whole Chamizo thing bc Burroughs himself is unhappy about it.

On a somewhat different note, do you think the Uzbek now training at the Hawkeye WC will eventually be wearing a USA singlet? It sounds like he's relocated long term seeing how he's gonna be attending an Iowa CC.

 

[Daniel Fox]

There really isn’t as much connection as you think..

Please explain the lack of connection. Columbia University is not a powerhouse wrestling school, nor was Kendall Cross ever a wrestler or a coach there. Why would he have an unwavering loyalty to the University? Do you really think Chamizo was brought in to help the Columbia Wrestling program?

 

[dsdoubled]

Please explain the lack of connection. Columbia University is not a powerhouse wrestling school, nor was Kendall Cross ever a wrestler or a coach there. Why would he have an unwavering loyalty to the University? Do you really think Chamizo was brought in to help the Columbia Wrestling program?

I have to agree. Check this out straight from the RTC website and try to figure out were coaching a foreign world champ fits in:

What is the New York City Regional Training Center?
The New York City RTC is recognized as a satellite location for athletes to train and compete in international styles of wrestling through USA Wrestling, the governing body of wrestling within the United States Olympic Committee. The facility will be opened year-round and available to USA Wrestling member athletes who meet the designated criteria and want to compete on world and Olympic teams. The NYC RTC operates as a partnership between Columbia University, The Edge School of Wrestling (Hoboken, NJ) and USA Wrestling. Its goal is to create and develop world-class wrestling opportunities in the New York City region.

 

[jack36767]

Please explain the lack of connection. Columbia University is not a powerhouse wrestling school, nor was Kendall Cross ever a wrestler or a coach there. Why would he have an unwavering loyalty to the University? Do you really think Chamizo was brought in to help the Columbia Wrestling program?

Sigh... if you break it down to it’s bare bare bones.. since you ignored me explaining it

USA wrestling as far as the RTC or BTS goes is literally just the organization that is given money so that they will be “certified” to coach or as the registry for your local RTC or club.

I literally just went through this process. I get paid by BTS Chicago, NOT USA wrestling, I help run the South Side RTC. Our RTCs focus is on helping the kids, growing the sport, etc. Rather than Olympic training but it is still an RTC. I,me, myself paid USA wrestling to re-register as a coach (really a background check primarily). Beat the Streets, not USA wrestling will reimburse me, if I go to “professional development” for coaching. I have to pay USA wrestling. Again my boss(s) are BTS Chicago through Mike Powell and it’s board of directors not USA wrestling. Oh and that “tax write off” is above board..

As far as Kendall Cross.. what does “unwavering loyalty” have to do with it... he was given a job, has checks cut by the Columbia RTC not USA wrestling. Part of his job is creating a tougher RTC for his athletes and bringing in high profile athletes to help both his room and indirectly Columbia University. You don’t think having Chamizo there doesn’t help Columbia with recruiting?

 

[jack36767]

Additionally.. in addition to the reasons Holt stated.. the entire reason the RTCs worked is because the money and coaching was no longer coming from and run by USA wrestling. For everything from the money Holt talked about, to athletes “feeling” that training at the OTC let the USA wrestling coaches scout against them to help their favorites win.

Again, Burroughs is completely justified in being annoyed that the NYC people were more worried about recruiting Chamizo than glorifying him. But it isn’t the ”creonate” situation it’s being made out to be either

Cognitive dissonance.. it’s ok to hold two opposing views that are both true at the same time

 

[Daniel Fox]

Sigh... if you break it down to it’s bare bare bones.. since you ignored me explaining it

USA wrestling as far as the RTC or BTS goes is literally just the organization that is given money so that they will be “certified” to coach or as the registry for your local RTC or club.

I literally just went through this process. I get paid by BTS Chicago, NOT USA wrestling, I help run the South Side RTC. Our RTCs focus is on helping the kids, growing the sport, etc. Rather than Olympic training but it is still an RTC. I,me, myself paid USA wrestling to re-register as a coach (really a background check primarily). Beat the Streets, not USA wrestling will reimburse me, if I go to “professional development” for coaching. I have to pay USA wrestling. Again my boss(s) are BTS Chicago through Mike Powell and it’s board of directors not USA wrestling. Oh and that “tax write off” is above board..

As far as Kendall Cross.. what does “unwavering loyalty” have to do with it... he was given a job, has checks cut by the Columbia RTC not USA wrestling. Part of his job is creating a tougher RTC for his athletes and bringing in high profile athletes to help both his room and indirectly Columbia University. You don’t think having Chamizo there doesn’t help Columbia with recruiting?

Additionally.. in addition to the reasons Holt stated.. the entire reason the RTCs worked is because the money and coaching was no longer coming from and run by USA wrestling. For everything from the money Holt talked about, to athletes “feeling” that training at the OTC let the USA wrestling coaches scout against them to help their favorites win.

Again, Burroughs is completely justified in being annoyed that the NYC people were more worried about recruiting Chamizo than glorifying him. But it isn’t the ”creonate” situation it’s being made out to be either

Cognitive dissonance.. it’s ok to hold two opposing views that are both true at the same time

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.


I have read your prior posts regarding your work at Beat the Streets (it’s very noble of you, I might add), but your RTC training center on the South side of Chicago is a hell of a lot different than the NYCRTC which has Olympic level athletes training there. I would agree that your particular beat the streets program is to literally “beat the streets’ and keep kids away from gangs, drugs, and violence. The primary purpose of the NYCRTC is to produce Olympic athletes hence the reason why they brought Cross, and Kalika there in the first place. Prior to the NYCRTC, the main training center was NYAC (New York Athletic Club), and yes there were big money donors who would donate and use it as a tax write offs. I know this because I have trained there. I would imagine those donors are the ones paying the Salary of Cross and Kalika.


Regarding my facetious comment of Cross having “unwavering loyalty” to Columbia University was in response to Dirty Holt. Holt suggested that the RTC were to bring in world class athletes to wrestle with the collegiate athletes and make the college teams better. I believe this may be the case for places like the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, and the Cowboy Wrestling club, but not NYCRTC.


Do I think having Chamizo training at NYCRTC is going to help Columbia’s recruiting class? Absolutely not. I think the link between the NYCRTC and Columbia University is weak at best. Furthermore, I do not believe Columbia even gives out wrestling scholarships. Cross is not a Columbia coach, and Chamizo is not a folk style wrestler. If any school is going to going to benefit from the NYCRTC it is probably going to be Rutgers, and Hofstra, they are the only schools in the immediate area that have half way decent wrestling programs.

 

[dsdoubled]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.


I have read your prior posts regarding your work at Beat the Streets (it’s very noble of you, I might add), but your RTC training center on the South side of Chicago is a hell of a lot different than the NYCRTC which has Olympic level athletes training there. I would agree that your particular beat the streets program is to literally “beat the streets’ and keep kids away from gangs, drugs, and violence. The primary purpose of the NYCRTC is to produce Olympic athletes hence the reason why they brought Cross, and Kalika there in the first place. Prior to the NYCRTC, the main training center was NYAC (New York Athletic Club), and yes there were big money donors who would donate and use it as a tax write offs. I know this because I have trained there. I would imagine those donors are the ones paying the Salary of Cross and Kalika.


Regarding my facetious comment of Cross having “unwavering loyalty” to Columbia University was in response to Dirty Holt. Holt suggested that the RTC were to bring in world class athletes to wrestle with the collegiate athletes and make the college teams better. I believe this may be the case for places like the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, and the Cowboy Wrestling club, but not NYCRTC.


Do I think having Chamizo training at NYCRTC is going to help Columbia’s recruiting class? Absolutely not. I think the link between the NYCRTC and Columbia University is weak at best. Furthermore, I do not believe Columbia even gives out wrestling scholarships. Cross is not a Columbia coach, and Chamizo is not a folk style wrestler. If any school is going to going to benefit from the NYCRTC it is probably going to be Rutgers, and Hofstra, they are the only schools in the immediate area that have half way decent wrestling programs.

I just want to weigh in on the link between Columbia and the RTC. The RTC doesn't have a facility of its own as far as I know. They use Columbia's facilities and the amazing facilities at Edge Hoboken. One of Columbia's coaches is also an RTC Coach too I believe. However I do share your opinion that the RTC exists more to win medals for USAW then it does to help with Columbia's recruiting. Columbia's extremely high academic standards have got to be a pretty big limiting factor as far as which wrestlers will attend school there. One thing I'm curious about is how much Columbia's wrestling team will improve now that they have regular access to world class coaches and training partners.

 

[Daniel Fox]

I just want to weigh in on the link between Columbia and the RTC. The RTC doesn't have a facility of its own as far as I know. They use Columbia's facilities and the amazing facilities at Edge Hoboken. One of Columbia's coaches is also an RTC Coach too I believe. However I do share your opinion that the RTC exists more to win medals for USAW then it does to help with Columbia's recruiting. Columbia's extremely high academic standards have got to be a pretty big limiting factor as far as which wrestlers will attend school there. One thing I'm curious about is how much Columbia's wrestling team will improve now that they have regular access to world class coaches and training partners.

Probably very minimally, there were world class coaches at NYAC such as Momir Petkovic, when I was there the kids that were really benefiting from the program were high school kids from Long Island and Jersey. I believe as a kid Mocco used to train there. I remember Hunter College kids going to the practices, but I do not remember any Columbia kids. Like you mentioned it is an Ivy League School, that does not give out wrestling scholarships. The kids who go to Columbia go there for the academics, not to wrestle, as opposed to Iowa, Ohio State, Penn State etc. who go to college to wrestle, studying is secondary.

 

[jack36767]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.


I have read your prior posts regarding your work at Beat the Streets (it’s very noble of you, I might add), but your RTC training center on the South side of Chicago is a hell of a lot different than the NYCRTC which has Olympic level athletes training there. I would agree that your particular beat the streets program is to literally “beat the streets’ and keep kids away from gangs, drugs, and violence. The primary purpose of the NYCRTC is to produce Olympic athletes hence the reason why they brought Cross, and Kalika there in the first place. Prior to the NYCRTC, the main training center was NYAC (New York Athletic Club), and yes there were big money donors who would donate and use it as a tax write offs. I know this because I have trained there. I would imagine those donors are the ones paying the Salary of Cross and Kalika.


Regarding my facetious comment of Cross having “unwavering loyalty” to Columbia University was in response to Dirty Holt. Holt suggested that the RTC were to bring in world class athletes to wrestle with the collegiate athletes and make the college teams better. I believe this may be the case for places like the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, and the Cowboy Wrestling club, but not NYCRTC.


Do I think having Chamizo training at NYCRTC is going to help Columbia’s recruiting class? Absolutely not. I think the link between the NYCRTC and Columbia University is weak at best. Furthermore, I do not believe Columbia even gives out wrestling scholarships. Cross is not a Columbia coach, and Chamizo is not a folk style wrestler. If any school is going to going to benefit from the NYCRTC it is probably going to be Rutgers, and Hofstra, they are the only schools in the immediate area that have half way decent wrestling programs.

My point concerning that is the way money works at RTCs period. USA wrestling is not the one cutting the checks or really in charge the way people think. Just because the scale or level of RTCs are different.. does not mean the basic institutional mechanisms aren’t in place. Until you truly internalize this info. And why the RTCs rose and work, we’ll probably disagree.

And as far as helping recruiting.. absolutely it will.. getting an athlete to pick Columbia over another Ivy League school like Princeton or Cornell. Or high academic like Bucknell, Davidson etc. Bear in mind we’re talking about the mid to high level recruit with the academics but also is ambitious wrestling wise. You don’t think having the ability to train with Cross or Chamizo doesn’t help the their recruiting? Additionally if a DI program does not have an RTC it massively hinders recruiting.. regardless of the school

You don’t think those donars who kept Columbia alive don’t expect the coaches to find ways to compete?

And no I don’t think the situation is ideal. I also don’t think clinics by certain people should be $10,000 a day. But as several old timers have pointed out. Schalles most loudly, todays situation (at the senior level, lower levels are a different animal) today’s situation is better than it was with no money in the sport, anyone still competing in or past their mid 20s being a “wrestling bum”. Etc.

Either way, people are blowing it way out of proportion.. and yes Kendall Cross is doing his job by trying to improve his room. His job is to improve the NYC RTC and by extension Columbia wrestling. That’s what he’s being paid to do. Columbia not being a traditional powerhouse doesn’t change that, in fact I like the fact this occurred outside a traditional power

 

[Daniel Fox]

My point concerning that is the way money works at RTCs period. USA wrestling is not the one cutting the checks or really in charge the way people think. Just because the scale or level of RTCs are different.. does not mean the basic institutional mechanisms aren’t in place. Until you truly internalize this info. And why the RTCs rose and work, we’ll probably disagree.

And as far as helping recruiting.. absolutely it will.. getting an athlete to pick Columbia over another Ivy League school like Princeton or Cornell. Or high academic like Bucknell, Davidson etc. Bear in mind we’re talking about the mid to high level recruit with the academics but also is ambitious wrestling wise. You don’t think having the ability to train with Cross or Chamizo doesn’t help the their recruiting? Additionally if a DI program does not have an RTC it massively hinders recruiting.. regardless of the school

You don’t think those donars who kept Columbia alive don’t expect the coaches to find ways to compete?

And no I don’t think the situation is ideal. I also don’t think clinics by certain people should be $10,000 a day. But as several old timers have pointed out. Schalles most loudly, todays situation (at the senior level, lower levels are a different animal) today’s situation is better than it was with no money in the sport, anyone still competing in or past their mid 20s being a “wrestling bum”. Etc.

Either way, people are blowing it way out of proportion.. and yes Kendall Cross is doing his job by trying to improve his room. His job is to improve the NYC RTC and by extension Columbia wrestling. That’s what he’s being paid to do. Columbia not being a traditional powerhouse doesn’t change that, in fact I like the fact this occurred outside a traditional power

I will agree to disagree. I obviously will not change your mind on this subject, and you are not going to change mine. To keep arguing this point is kind of counter productive. I respect your opinion, and I enjoyed the conversation.

 

[yetanother]

No other country would allow the top rival to train at their facilities so they can learn how to beat the countries best wrestler. I respectfully disagree.

Wouldn't that work both ways? I assume if you spent a significant amount of time training in your rivals facilities you would end up getting fully scouted out.