USA Saves baby sentenced to death by UK health care. LIVE WITH DIGNITY!

Since Murica saved the baby from the evil socialist NHs, who's gonna save Muricans from medical bankruptcies and sky high prices? Surely there is no dignity in being broke due to illness.


https://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148

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That's the basic truth, healthcare in the US has become a massive gravey train and those on it naturally invest a great deal to make sure it will never stop in terms of trying to tie it to some kind of nationalism.
 
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how many times has international shame made an insurance company pay for emergency treatment for a child in America?

Socialism ftw
Imagine if international force could shame Murica into helping out the many thousands bankrupt by their healthcare fees
 
American right wingers going nuts in here while at the same time gladly leaving millions of americans with 0 coverage. Take that socialism.
 
It's that I had no idea what your graphs mean to have a clue what to debunk. They're all shit anyway, but as you presented them, just nebulous graphs with nothing to debunk or dispute. Me, nostradumbass, do you think I would have better healthcare if my taxes were hiked up another several thousand dollars or if I paid for shit that goes wrong when it goes wrong and just kept the extra savings?

If you changed your system to be like one of the countries that rank better than you in healthcare you'd obviously increase your taxes by less than you save on insurance since Americans are the ones that pay the most for their healthcare. That further shows that there's something lacking if you pay the most but don't get the best care overall.
 
American right wingers going nuts in here while at the same time gladly leaving millions of americans with 0 coverage. Take that socialism.

I would point out as well that issues with the NHS over funding are largely down to neoliberials trying to privatise it on the sly.
 
Glad the US Doctors were able to help.
The US is still good at producing top-notch heart surgeon.
The only thing they can produce better than heart surgeon are opioid-related deaths.

Holy fuck you're a fucking cunt.

Glad to hear the baby is going to be OK. Are GoFundMe payments tax write offs because if so this seems like a good way to counteract shitty government policy and skip the middle man, funding the correct kinds of charitable endeavours directly and avoiding funding shit you don't agree with with your tax dollars.
 
My only real issue here is the NHS deciding if you can take your baby to go get treatment else where or not. That's creepy as fuck.
 
If you changed your system to be like one of the countries that rank better than you in healthcare you'd obviously increase your taxes by less than you save on insurance since Americans are the ones that pay the most for their healthcare. That further shows that there's something lacking if you pay the most but don't get the best care overall.
That's not necessarily true. I have a pretty good job, so raising my taxes a few percentage points would mean a pretty good chunk of money. Also I take care of myself, I'm not overweight at all, I eat healthy and work out every day, so I'm basically the exact person who would get boned the worst and be stuck just paying for strangers while taking next to nothing for myself. Americans do get the best overall care, the rankings are based on polls and weird criteria about universality.

There are several reasons Americans spend more on healthcare, on average. Our poor people are obese and have diabetes and heart problems, people file lawsuits more than other places so malpractice insurance continues to skyrocket, and it now costs $2.6 billion to develop a new drug. This is why we have patent laws for them and can't get generics for a pretty decent length of time. Basically, the people who would pay the least are the ones who would cost the most, so these problems wouldn't be solved by the gov't hiking taxes and paying for healthcare.
 
That's not necessarily true. I have a pretty good job, so raising my taxes a few percentage points would mean a pretty good chunk of money. Also I take care of myself, I'm not overweight at all, I eat healthy and work out every day, so I'm basically the exact person who would get boned the worst and be stuck just paying for strangers while taking next to nothing for myself. Americans do get the best overall care, the rankings are based on polls and weird criteria about universality.

There are several reasons Americans spend more on healthcare, on average. Our poor people are obese and have diabetes and heart problems, people file lawsuits more than other places so malpractice insurance continues to skyrocket, and it now costs $2.6 billion to develop a new drug. This is why we have patent laws for them and can't get generics for a pretty decent length of time. Basically, the people who would pay the least are the ones who would cost the most, so these problems wouldn't be solved by the gov't hiking taxes and paying for healthcare.

I was talking about the general you, not you as an individual. I have a high salary but when I look at my country's politics I don't base it completely on selfish reasoning since that does my country no good. Increasing wealth gaps isn't a positive thing even if I'm on the more fortunate side. A healthy population is also beneficial to the prosperity of the nation.

If you don't get sick you pay a lot of money for nothing more than "what if" in both situations so that's no different. There's of course also room to just redistribute existing tax money, as you can always debate what is more important. Is it more important to spend more on your military than the #2 to #8 largest spenders combined, than having healthcare for the population? There are many aspects too look at, that was just one example. I'm also not saying what you should do, I'm just talking about the possibilities as it's up to the American population to decide what they want.

It doesn't fit well to complain about the criteria for various rankings and then just make a blanket statement using no clear criteria at all.

There seems to be no form of cost control going on as I recently saw an example of a few minutes worth of evaluation of a child at an emergency ward cost a South Korean couple 50% more than what it cost my mother having to have an emergency gallbladder removal surgery, and 4 days recovery at the hospital, in Switzerland. And Switzerland is considered expensive. It's likely a special case but that such a thing can happen at all is beyond me.
 
I support any parent or patients right to try.

It's never the place of a government bureaucrat to decide when a free individuals life must end.

U.K. death panels are one of the justified reasons Americans are so resistant to the notion of socialized healthcare.

I'll always take the freedom of choice over some perceived efficiency.
 
Can we stop pretending our shit doesn't stink:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...tal-pulls-life-support-against-parents-wishes

"
LOS ANGELES, California, August 26, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) — After months of going to extraordinary lengths to fight for their child’s life, a California family lost their young son after his life support was pulled.

Israel Stinson died Thursday when Children’s Hospital Los Angeles removed him from life support after a Los Angeles Superior Court judge dissolved the latest restraining order keeping him alive. The family was in the process of filing a court appeal, but the hospital took the two-year-old off life support anyway.

The recent handing of Israel’s care and the shocking way in which his life ended was bizarre and awful, an attorney for his family told LifeSiteNews.

Alexandra Snyder, executive director for the Life Legal Defense Foundation (LLDF), said it became increasingly clear during the few short weeks Israel was at the hospital where he came for treatment that the intent all along was to disconnect him from his life support. Not only did the hospital pull Israel’s life support against the family’s wishes while they were in the midst of filing an appeal, his mother and father were told to leave their son’s side in the hospital upon his death.

“As soon as it happened, they told the parents to leave, to get out of the hospital,” Snyder told LifeSiteNews, “which means they could not properly say goodbye to their son. It was just horrendous.”

“There’s got to be a better way to do this,” she said.

Israel came to Children’s Hospital Los Angeles the first week of August after spending the previous two-plus months in a Guatemala hospital, airlifted there in late May to avoid withdrawal of his life support at Kaiser Permanente Hospital in Sacramento, California, which was near his home and had declared him “brain dead.”

The family fought the Kaiser facility for weeks to keep their son alive while searching for long-term care elsewhere after he suffered a severe asthma attack in early April that resulted in cardiac arrest and brain injury. Israel’s family maintained throughout that he was showing signs of responsiveness, and an outside specialist’s findings disputed the Kaiser brain death diagnosis, yet Kaiser persisted in seeking withdrawal of Israel’s life support.

Israel did very well in the Guatemala hospital, Snyder said, and defied the Kaiser diagnosis with his improvement.

As one example, she said, Kaiser’s contention that the toddler could not process nutrition was “complete baloney,” because he was able to do so at the other hospital, and his EEGs there showed brain activity.

“They did everything in their power to help him,” she said. “It was amazing.”

Snyder wasn’t directly involved in arranging Israel’s transfer back to the United States and Children’s Hospital Los Angeles. That was done through a family member, but she said doctors at both facilities communicated throughout the process, meaning the LA hospital was fully aware of Israel’s improvement and agreed to take him while knowing the family’s intent to procure him long-term care.

Instead, roughly 10 days after his arrival at the Los Angeles facility, his parents were in court having to secure an August 18 restraining order enjoining the hospital from pulling Israel’s life support just two hours before it was set to happen.

Snyder said the LA hospital would not consider the Guatemala facility’s brain activity test and did not conduct one of its own, instead using Israel’s Kaiser test from April to validate its action, signaling to Snyder that something was amiss all along. A lot had happened in the way of Israel’s improvement in the five months since he became ill, she said, but the hospital refused to consider it.

“I’m baffled why they would take him when that was their intention from the beginning,” Snyder said. “Why would a hospital with no obligation to take him agree to take him and give these parents hope, with the singular intention of ending his life?”

This was further underscored by the fact that while the family was asking for an independent brain activity test to be done, the hospital rushed an ex parte motion to remove Israel’s life support as soon as possible instead of the September 9 end date of the restraining order, leading to Thursday’s hearing and Israel’s subsequent death.

“They really expedited things today (Thursday) to make sure that the test did not take place,” Snyder stated. “I don’t understand the action of the hospital because it appears they agreed to take him, to make sure he never left the hospital.”

“They were on a mission to make this happen,” she continued, acting swiftly to end the toddler’s life while there was pending legal action.

“Parents have the right to seek recourse and go before a judge,” Snyder said. “And when a judge says no, they have the right to appeal.”

Not once did Israel’s parents get a chance to discuss their son’s condition with a physician whom they trusted, she said.

Snyder called the hospital futilely asking for Israel’s parents to have more time with him after he died. The hospital was so intent on getting this done, she said, that there had been no discussion with Israel’s parents about how to handle his remains.

“There was no respect for the family,” Snyder stated. “And no respect for this little boy.”

Patients who have been declared brain dead have recovered on numerous occasions, and Israel’s family was trying to get him to a facility where he’d have time and a chance.

They focused on New Jersey, where state law does not recognize a “brain death” declaration in situations where the family members believe that life continues until the patient’s heart stops beating, though they would have taken him anywhere that would have allowed him time to get well.

Snyder told LifeSiteNews that Israel’s case is a tragic illustration how the controversial concept of legal brain death is especially contentious in California, where laws defining when someone is declared “brain dead” are more permissive than other states.

“This whole case shows that it’s not as clear as they say it is,” she said, “or as they want it to be.”
"
 
Can we stop pretending our shit doesn't stink:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...tal-pulls-life-support-against-parents-wishes

"
LOS ANGELES, California, August 26, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) — After months of going to extraordinary lengths to fight for their child’s life, a California family lost their young son after his life support was pulled.

Israel Stinson died Thursday when Children’s Hospital Los Angeles removed him from life support after a Los Angeles Superior Court judge dissolved the latest restraining order keeping him alive. The family was in the process of filing a court appeal, but the hospital took the two-year-old off life support anyway.

The recent handing of Israel’s care and the shocking way in which his life ended was bizarre and awful, an attorney for his family told LifeSiteNews.

Alexandra Snyder, executive director for the Life Legal Defense Foundation (LLDF), said it became increasingly clear during the few short weeks Israel was at the hospital where he came for treatment that the intent all along was to disconnect him from his life support. Not only did the hospital pull Israel’s life support against the family’s wishes while they were in the midst of filing an appeal, his mother and father were told to leave their son’s side in the hospital upon his death.

“As soon as it happened, they told the parents to leave, to get out of the hospital,” Snyder told LifeSiteNews, “which means they could not properly say goodbye to their son. It was just horrendous.”

“There’s got to be a better way to do this,” she said.

Israel came to Children’s Hospital Los Angeles the first week of August after spending the previous two-plus months in a Guatemala hospital, airlifted there in late May to avoid withdrawal of his life support at Kaiser Permanente Hospital in Sacramento, California, which was near his home and had declared him “brain dead.”

The family fought the Kaiser facility for weeks to keep their son alive while searching for long-term care elsewhere after he suffered a severe asthma attack in early April that resulted in cardiac arrest and brain injury. Israel’s family maintained throughout that he was showing signs of responsiveness, and an outside specialist’s findings disputed the Kaiser brain death diagnosis, yet Kaiser persisted in seeking withdrawal of Israel’s life support.

Israel did very well in the Guatemala hospital, Snyder said, and defied the Kaiser diagnosis with his improvement.

As one example, she said, Kaiser’s contention that the toddler could not process nutrition was “complete baloney,” because he was able to do so at the other hospital, and his EEGs there showed brain activity.

“They did everything in their power to help him,” she said. “It was amazing.”

Snyder wasn’t directly involved in arranging Israel’s transfer back to the United States and Children’s Hospital Los Angeles. That was done through a family member, but she said doctors at both facilities communicated throughout the process, meaning the LA hospital was fully aware of Israel’s improvement and agreed to take him while knowing the family’s intent to procure him long-term care.

Instead, roughly 10 days after his arrival at the Los Angeles facility, his parents were in court having to secure an August 18 restraining order enjoining the hospital from pulling Israel’s life support just two hours before it was set to happen.

Snyder said the LA hospital would not consider the Guatemala facility’s brain activity test and did not conduct one of its own, instead using Israel’s Kaiser test from April to validate its action, signaling to Snyder that something was amiss all along. A lot had happened in the way of Israel’s improvement in the five months since he became ill, she said, but the hospital refused to consider it.

“I’m baffled why they would take him when that was their intention from the beginning,” Snyder said. “Why would a hospital with no obligation to take him agree to take him and give these parents hope, with the singular intention of ending his life?”

This was further underscored by the fact that while the family was asking for an independent brain activity test to be done, the hospital rushed an ex parte motion to remove Israel’s life support as soon as possible instead of the September 9 end date of the restraining order, leading to Thursday’s hearing and Israel’s subsequent death.

“They really expedited things today (Thursday) to make sure that the test did not take place,” Snyder stated. “I don’t understand the action of the hospital because it appears they agreed to take him, to make sure he never left the hospital.”

“They were on a mission to make this happen,” she continued, acting swiftly to end the toddler’s life while there was pending legal action.

“Parents have the right to seek recourse and go before a judge,” Snyder said. “And when a judge says no, they have the right to appeal.”

Not once did Israel’s parents get a chance to discuss their son’s condition with a physician whom they trusted, she said.

Snyder called the hospital futilely asking for Israel’s parents to have more time with him after he died. The hospital was so intent on getting this done, she said, that there had been no discussion with Israel’s parents about how to handle his remains.

“There was no respect for the family,” Snyder stated. “And no respect for this little boy.”

Patients who have been declared brain dead have recovered on numerous occasions, and Israel’s family was trying to get him to a facility where he’d have time and a chance.

They focused on New Jersey, where state law does not recognize a “brain death” declaration in situations where the family members believe that life continues until the patient’s heart stops beating, though they would have taken him anywhere that would have allowed him time to get well.

Snyder told LifeSiteNews that Israel’s case is a tragic illustration how the controversial concept of legal brain death is especially contentious in California, where laws defining when someone is declared “brain dead” are more permissive than other states.

“This whole case shows that it’s not as clear as they say it is,” she said, “or as they want it to be.”
"

We may be in agreement. Agents of the state have far too much authority over this crucial family decision.

The state should have no ability to infringe upon a patient, or that patients families right to try. It's an affront to the very notions of freedom and liberty.

I also shudder to think of the medical discoveries that aren't being discovered because of inhumane policies like the one highlighted in this threads first post.
 
The UK government didn't refuse the procedure, they just refused to pay for it.

The US government didn't pay for it either.

So.... I fail to see how this reflects on either system.
 
My only real issue here is the NHS deciding if you can take your baby to go get treatment else where or not. That's creepy as fuck.

Thats not what happened, the NHS simply refused to pay for the procedure.
 
We may be in agreement. Agents of the state have far too much authority over this crucial family decision.

The state should have no ability to infringe upon a patient, or that patients families right to try. It's an affront to the very notions of freedom and liberty.

I also shudder to think of the medical discoveries that aren't being discovered because of inhumane policies like the one highlighted in this threads first post.

The right to try was never violated.

There was just a fee of $270k to try and the UK government refused to pay for it.
 
the highlighted is not accurate.

I am confused by a few things being debated here.

Do the left in the USA typically try to argue that American medicine at the top end is sub par or not up to the standards of other nations? I'm Canadian and we all know the US care at the top end and in speciality faculties is tops in the world.

But just because the US is tops in this specific area to save this child does not mean they are tops i every single area. Other countries have faculties, at times where they are tops in that area.

Where the US system fails is for the lower middle class and below. And not because the care is not available but rather because its unaffordable.The US system is completely broken in that regard due to special interests.


That pretty much describes us to a T. We tend to have the best if you have a lot of money. The vast majority of people (middle class and below) are clearly worse off compared to other industrialized nations.

But that's the beauty of the U.S. system, having the best, and fooling the rabble into thinking they have the best too.
 
yay socialism.... you seem to have left this bit of the article out
Yeah as if this story couldn't have happened dozens of ways with the us private insurance system denying coverage due to any number of reasons
 
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