US to ban travel to North Korea

[Trotsky]

I'm sure Iran is safer than North Korea, but I would't consider either of them to be very friendly towards Americans. Iran is another one of those places that will get you caught up as a political prisoner really quick for doing the wrong thing. Our governments fear mongering about Iran is pretty well founded if you ask me. Iran is no friend to ISIS or Sunnis in general, but they aren't our friend either.

Politically, no they aren't our friends, and if you break the law you will be detained as in any other country. However, Iran is actually a fairly progressive society, at least compared to their neighboring countries, and is in the throws of rejecting fundamentalism, what with adopting modern moral standards (electing women to office and amending Sharia criminal codes) and maintaining a popular culture that is very Western-esque. The younger Iranians, and a good portion of the older ones, want to continue this trajectory and welcome Westerners for this reason, and for the reason that most Westerners who visit tend to have a predisposition towards Iran as a society and as a historical epicenter. If you visit travel sites, you'll see that most American tourists have extremely positive experiences in Iran.

 

[leto1776]

I actually was planning to go and I do not like this at all. Any person who would go to North Korea would have to go through all the red tape and be fully aware of the international tensions, the nature of the North Korean state, and the fact that they would have no means of diplomatic retrieval. So this is just paternalistic authoritarianism.

To me, being able to experience a place so wildly different from my own (both in terms of culture and political repression) and circulate some money to a citizenry that desperately needs it is worth patronizing an oppressive regime and taking a 0.1% chance of being detained

The only thing people do by going on tour there is to help prop up a despotic regime. No money spent there will reach the people of N. Korea. You'll be taken on a propaganda tour, fed propaganda non stop, and be asked to bow to statues of the Great Leader and the Dear Leader, while propagandists take your photo and use you in further propaganda to be used on the people there.

As far as being "able to experience a place so wildly different from my own (both in terms of culture and political repression)" That's just like all the people saying to hurry up and go to Cuba now "before it gets ruined." Yeah, because the place isn't already a ruined shithole.

 

[Trotsky]

The only thing people do by going on tour there is to help prop up a despotic regime. No money spent there will reach the people of N. Korea. You'll be taken on a propaganda tour, fed propaganda non stop, and be asked to bow to statues of the Great Leader and the Dear Leader, while propagandists take your photo and use you in further propaganda to be used on the people there.

As far as being "able to experience a place so wildly different from my own (both in terms of culture and political repression)" That's just like all the people saying to hurry up and go to Cuba now "before it gets ruined." Yeah, because the place isn't already a ruined shithole.

Why do people who clearly do not have any knowledge on issues feel the need to express an opinion on them?

Yes, that money does go to the North Korean people and state-financed amenities. Also, private enterprise is beginning to expand in the country and is in need of stimulation. The alternative is hoping that, over the course of following decades, millions will starve and suffer until the people revolt and commence a long, bloody transfer of power, all while you smugly grin about how shitty their country is and bitch that we better not give them international aid.

Cuba has the highest living standards, poverty rates, education rates, and citizen satisfaction in the Caribbean. It's a poor country, and it always will be, but it's one of the most politically well-managed and non-ruined-shitholes countries of any in the world that are similarly situated.

Seriously, though, you read a FB comment or internet thread espousing fantastical reports and reductive black-white-good-bad dichotomies and all of the sudden think you know enough to flaunt your opinion? Fuck off.

 

[leto1776]

Why do people who clearly do not have any knowledge on issues feel the need to express an opinion on them?

Yes, that money does go to the North Korean people and state-financed amenities. Also, private enterprise is beginning to expand in the country and is in need of stimulation. The alternative is hoping that, over the course of following decades, millions will starve and suffer until the people revolt and commence a long, bloody transfer of power, all while you smugly grin about how shitty their country is and bitch that we better not give them international aid.

Cuba has the highest living standards, poverty rates, education rates, and citizen satisfaction in the Caribbean. It's a poor country, and it always will be, but it's one of the most politically well-managed and non-ruined-shitholes countries of any in the world that are similarly situated.

Seriously, though, you read a FB comment or internet thread espousing fantastical reports and reductive black-white-good-bad dichotomies and all of the sudden think you know enough to flaunt your opinion? Fuck off.

You sound as delusional and stuck in ideology as the man whose name you took as your screen name.

 

[Undying Poster]

This is a bad idea, but on the flip side this could be looked at as a sort of veiled preparation for something *tactical*

Reduce the number of American citizens in NK to keep from having *collateral damage*

That's what I immediately thought... It's not like we are really punishing them from keeping Americans from traveling to there

 

[Trotsky]

You sound as delusional and stuck in ideology as the man whose name you took as your screen name.

That shows that, unsurprisingly, you don't know much about Trotsky. His time at the head of the Soviet Union showed he was extremely willing to sacrifice ideology for functionality (see his relationship with the trad unions and soviets).

Anyways, since you say that I'm the ideologue and you're the practical one, can you provide objective stats that prove your assertions over mine? I have oft cited the quality of living statistics for Cuba in this thread and can do it again, but you're welcome to prove to us all that it's a mismanaged shit hole. Further, you're free to show that circulating capital, whether into a state-ran system of resource distribution or market-ran system, would not reach the citizens.

Without any of that, you're just an ignorant boob who had to abandon your argument and resort to baseless name calling when called out on your incompetence.

 

[leto1776]

That shows that, unsurprisingly, you don't know much about Trotsky. His time at the head of the Soviet Union showed he was extremely willing to sacrifice ideology for functionality (see his relationship with the trad unions and soviets).

Anyways, since you say that I'm the ideologue and you're the practical one, can you provide objective stats that prove your assertions over mine? I have oft cited the quality of living statistics for Cuba in this thread and can do it again, but you're welcome to prove to us all that it's a mismanaged shit hole. Further, you're free to show that circulating capital, whether into a state-ran system of resource distribution or market-ran system, would not reach the citizens.

Without any of that, you're just an ignorant boob who had to abandon your argument and resort to baseless name calling when called out on your incompetence.

I really don't give a fuck about Trotsky. Communism is evil, and a failed, intellectually bankrupt concept.

The fact you believe any money from tourism in N. Korea is actually reaching the people, tells me you haven't read into that country at all.

As for Cuba?

Such a workers' paradise.

A high literacy rate doesn't mean much when your building collapses on you.

 

[Gregolian]

Why the fuck would someone want to NK in the first place always comes to mind when I see this.

 

[Trotsky]

I really don't give a fuck about Trotsky. Communism is evil, and a failed, intellectually bankrupt concept.

The fact you believe any money from tourism in N. Korea is actually reaching the people, tells me you haven't read into that country at all.

As for Cuba?

View attachment 253319

Such a workers' paradise.

A high literacy rate doesn't mean much when your building collapses on you.

Lol, that's your response? You counter education, literacy, poverty, etc. with pics of run down buildings?

Do I need to post pictures just like that from literally every American city? Hell, I live in St. Louis. Want me to just take a picture out my window?

Jeez, you just keep lowering the level of discourse. It's impressive.


I know a lot more about both of these countries than you do. It's not a high bar, but still. It is funny that you view NK with such illogical and absolute pessimism though, that you actually think they withhold all wealth from feeding their starving citizens. Doesn't quite fit in with how their rates of hunger and malnutrition correlate perfectly with famine and agricultural productivity, though. (As I'm sure you can deduce, there would be no correlation if the state was just taking everything for itself, since they own all farming land). It's also impressive that you can take such a stupid stance that I have to actually defending fucking North Korea.

 

[leto1776]

Lol, that's your response? You counter education, literacy, poverty, etc. with pics of run down buildings?

Do I need to post pictures just like that from literally every American city? Hell, I live in St. Louis. Want me to just take a picture out my window?

Jeez, you just keep lowering the level of discourse. It's impressive.


I know a lot more about both of these countries than you do. It's not a high bar, but still. It is funny that you view NK with such illogical and absolute pessimism though, that you actually think they withhold all wealth from feeding their starving citizens. Doesn't quite fit in with how their rates of hunger and malnutrition correlate perfectly with famine and agricultural productivity, though. (As I'm sure you can deduce, there would be no correlation if the state was just taking everything for itself, since they own all farming land). It's also impressive that you can take such a stupid stance that I have to actually defending fucking North Korea.

I really doubt you know more about N.K. than I do. I spent 3.5 years living in the south, and have read upwards of 2 dozen books on the history of the Korean peninsula, the civil war, and multiple first hand accounts of life in N.K, not to mention first hand accounts of what it's like to tour there. Gping there does not benefit the people at all. It benefits the regime, who uses the touraists as propaganda against their own people. This is well known and documented.
The N.K. people are on average shorter than the people in the South, so unlike the portly Marshall, who gets fatter by the day, they're certainly being kept from proper nourishment.

You say I view N.K. with illogical and absolute pessimism, well, it's not illogical, because there is nothing good or redeeming about the place. It is literally the book 1984 come to life. The fact that you feel a need to defend it, says a lot about you and your beliefs.

As far as Cuba goes, all I had to do was search on google "buildings in Cuba." 9/10 pictures were shithole buildings, every 10th picture was a government building. As I said, it's a shithole. Buildings collapsing everywhere, cars from the 50s running on McGyver style parts, etc. Real Workers' paradise.

 

[ShoelessRye]

This is a bad idea, but on the flip side this could be looked at as a sort of veiled preparation for something *tactical*

Reduce the number of American citizens in NK to keep from having *collateral damage*

I don't think you can hear any war drums in this move given the amount of Americans within bomb range in South Korea. If anything this lessens the chance of war IMO because Trump can't do something stupid like try to send in SEAL's or something to break out imprisoned Americans if none are in there. Also Trump ridiculed Obama for not doing enough to secure the release of citizens imprisoned - so this way he can say "Look, you are banned from going and went anyways, you're on your own".