US it's not a country, it's a state of mind

[Liquid Smoke]

When has capitalism worked without a huge state supporting it?

There's never been real capitalism. All this "too big to fail" crap is what gets us into trouble.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Inside every foreigner is an American trying to get out, and we must help them!

 

[Judge]

Again, I'm talking about American neoliberalism. It's Do you know what that means? Should I lecture you about the Hayekian flavor or should I critique Friedmans more radical position? I see you skirting the issue about government control of capital by trying to talk about socialism. I get it, you don't know what i'm talking about so you're trying to define it by what you think its opposite is.

You posted "Europe is far from capitalism" and this is both wrong and stupid to believe so. The rest of your babbling I could give two fucks about.
I am just stating that your general premise is wrong so you are only doomed to do nothing than shitpost after that.

LOL, please tell me how Europe is far from private ownership of property and business.

I

you are a symbol of how poorly educated some Americans actually are

"Ad hominem is the first, last, and only weapon of the seriously limited thinker" - Judge

 

[MayhemMonkey]

You posted "Europe is far from capitalism" and this is both wrong and stupid to believe so. The rest of your babbling I could give two fucks about.
I am just stating that your general premise is wrong so you are only doomed to do nothing than shitpost after that.



"Ad hominem is the first, last, and only weapon of the seriously limited thinker" - Judge

Im giving you the opportunity to embarrass me like you said you would...... as yet youve failed to take the bait. Im disappointed in you kiddo

 

[Pupi]

There's never been real capitalism. All this "too big to fail" crap is what gets us into trouble.

That's the economic equivalent of a physicist saying that the Earth is flat.

You posted "Europe is far from capitalism" and this is both wrong and stupid to believe so. The rest of your babbling I could give two fucks about.
I am just stating that your general premise is wrong so you are only doomed to do nothing than shitpost after that.

LOL, please tell me how Europe is far from private ownership of property and business.

Are you drunk right now? Nowhere in this thread did I post that. First you dodge my question about neoliberalism by talking about socialism and now you're dodging another question regarding American neoliberalism to talk about European social democracy? LMAO are you fucking kidding me guy?

 

[Liquid Smoke]

That's the economic equivalent of a physicist saying that the Earth is flat.

Allow me to clarify then. The US gov't is majorly in the business of artificially inflating assets. Their meddling in the loan markets caused the great recession. They basically fund all the research supporting big pharma and subsidize every thing from the banking system to pork bellies to gasoline. We may be a lot of things, but a free market is not one of them.

 

[Pupi]

Allow me to clarify then. The US gov't is majorly in the business of artificially inflating assets. Their meddling in the loan markets caused the great recession. They basically fund all the research supporting big pharma and subsidize every thing from the banking system to pork bellies to gasoline. We may be a lot of things, but a free market is not one of them.

How does this free market world that you imagine look like and how does it hypothetically function?

 

[RetiredSlave]

Nah capitalism is for the big boys. The peons are manipulated into a variety of behaviours that ultimately hold them down. Lack of self discipline is the theme of the west.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

How does this free market world that you imagine look like and how does it hypothetically function?

its the libertarian dream.... that thankfully wont ever come to fruition

 

[Liquid Smoke]

How does this free market world that you imagine look like and how does it hypothetically function?

Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If something is too expensive to produce, then people do without it. You mentioned that radical Milton Friedman in a previous post so I know you're familiar with the concept at least.

But let me give you an example of the free market doing what some people claim it can't. I referenced the gov't funding research that benefits pharma companies. Most people think this is great and they say we wouldn't get this knowledge otherwise. Well did you know the phone company invented the transistor? They did so not for some altruistic cause, but for their own purpose. They needed a high speed switch to replace the mechanical ones they had. Vacuum tubes were a possibility but they ran too hot and failed too frequently. So they invented a new device that forms the basis of all modern electronics. We wouldn't have computers w/o it. And the invention was so important the inventors won the Nobel Prize in physics for it. So we know a company can fund its own scientific research and the rest of us benefit from it.

Now its my turn, why do you feel it is required for the government to interfere with natural markets?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Now its my turn, why do you feel it is required for the government to interfere with natural markets?

consumer protection

 

[Liquid Smoke]

consumer protection

Go on

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Go on

well to reference the conversation Joe Rogan had with Dave Rubin.... building regulations for example. Without them builders could scam anyone they want and they wouldnt find out until years later when the house(or whatever it is) falls down. Food safety regulations are another one, but we take those far more seriously than Americans do..... hence why we dont import a lot of American food

 

[Pupi]

its the libertarian dream.... that thankfully wont ever come to fruition

It would plunge the world into chaos. Fuck that.

Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If something is too expensive to produce, then people do without it. You mentioned that radical Milton Friedman in a previous post so I know you're familiar with the concept at least.

But let me give you an example of the free market doing what some people claim it can't. I referenced the gov't funding research that benefits pharma companies. Most people think this is great and they say we wouldn't get this knowledge otherwise. Well did you know the phone company invented the transistor? They did so not for some altruistic cause, but for their own purpose. They needed a high speed switch to replace the mechanical ones they had. Vacuum tubes were a possibility but they ran too hot and failed too frequently. So they invented a new device that forms the basis of all modern electronics. We wouldn't have computers w/o it. And the invention was so important the inventors won the Nobel Prize in physics for it. So we know a company can fund its own scientific research and the rest of us benefit from it.

Now its my turn, why do you feel it is required for the government to interfere with natural markets?

I'm familiar with Friedman and how he was a hypocritical piece of shit that helped radicalize an already Frankensteinish system.

One key critique, as always, of those ideas that you seem to favor: workers are not abstractions equal to equipment, interest rates, shipping costs, and "resources." The laborer is also a political being instead of a tool of the capitalist. Hayek in The Road to Serfdom wrote that workers would act democratically during moments of economic crisis and would overturn market principles.

So...without the state to protect capitalists during moments of crisis, what would occur to this free-market that you envision? Or are workers, economic crisis, and rebellion rendered unthinkable in that system?

 

[Final Rehab]

Nah capitalism is for the big boys. The peons are manipulated into a variety of behaviours that ultimately hold them down. Lack of self discipline is the theme of the west.

"Theme of the west" my ass. It's the theme of humanity.

 

[RetiredSlave]

"Theme of the west" my ass. It's the theme of humanity.

Agreed, though the west is just about the only first world culture that openly celebrates hedonism as a worthy pursuit. I guess Latin America too but thats westernized enough to be in the club.

 

[Liquid Smoke]

It would plunge the world into chaos. Fuck that.



I'm familiar with Friedman and how he was a hypocritical piece of shit that helped radicalize an already Frankensteinish system.

One key critique, as always, of those ideas that you seem to favor: workers are not abstractions equal to equipment, interest rates, shipping costs, and "resources." The laborer is also a political being instead of a tool of the capitalist. Hayek in The Road to Serfdom wrote that workers would act democratically during moments of economic crisis and would overturn market principles.

So...without the state to protect capitalists during moments of crisis, what would occur to this free-market that you envision? Or are workers, economic crisis, and rebellion rendered unthinkable in that system?

You're right, workers are not equipment. They have agency, they are free to develop new skills and pursue a better offer.

As far as protection from an angry mob, fine that's a legitimate role of government. If this wasn't there, the rich guys would hire their own protection. The rest of us would be on our own.

 

[Liquid Smoke]

well to reference the conversation Joe Rogan had with Dave Rubin.... building regulations for example. Without them builders could scam anyone they want and they wouldnt find out until years later when the house(or whatever it is) falls down. Food safety regulations are another one, but we take those far more seriously than Americans do..... hence why we dont import a lot of American food

Without building codes you code put in the contract that a neutral party would verify that the building is up to an agreed upon standard. If it doesn't measure up, you don't close. On food safety, your reputation depends on you delivering a safe product. If people got sick off of it, you'd see it on your bottom line.

I'm not opposed to these standards though. I'm sure that our current system is full of corruption, but that's just how it goes I guess.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Without building codes you code put in the contract that a neutral party would verify that the building is up to an agreed upon standard. If it doesn't measure up, you don't close. On food safety, your reputation depends on you delivering a safe product. If people got sick off of it, you'd see it on your bottom line.

I'm not opposed to these standards though. I'm sure that our current system is full of corruption, but that's just how it goes I guess.

none of those adequately protect the consumer. Buildings can not show shoddy workmanship until years later..... contaminated food products may not cause damage until years later. Im sorry but if thats the best you can come up with its a total joke.

regulations are the only thing that protect the people(the consumers) from being fucked over by greedy businesses

 

[Pupi]

@Liquid Smoke In this free market world, what is the impediment of the rich forming cartels and becoming informal and formal states?