Update: "Teachers' Spring Continues" - Add AZ to the List with NC to Follow?

[luckyshot]

we do fire police for higher crime rates (e.g.: voting out a sheriff) and we do fire firemen for not meeting standards. so if a fire team went to fires all year and the fires burned out of control we would fire them, except for in the case of polcie and firemen their unions protect the bad ones so it's very hard to get rid of them. there are whole threads on this here. same goes for teachers

Your response also has nothing to do with standardized testing, though. Someone should be fired, or not, based on their performance. Not someone else's.

Teachers do get fired. Every year 2.1% of all teachers get fired for cause (ie. bad performance).

Are you just going to pretend that isn't the case? Are you going to dip out of this thread, pretend it never happened, and stick to your lie that "teachers can't be fired"?

 

[Gregolian]

Your response also has nothing to do with standardized testing, though. Someone should be fired, or not, based on their performance. Not someone else's.

Teachers do get fired. Every year 2.1% of all teachers get fired.

Are you just going to pretend that isn't the case? Are you going to dip out of this thread, pretend it never happened, and stick to your lie that "teachers can't be fired"?

2.1% out of how many thousands/millions of teachers? It's gotta be barely a drop in the bucket.

Standardized tests are fucking hilariously bad and stupid imo.

 

[cincymma79]

Your response also has nothing to do with standardized testing, though. Someone should be fired, or not, based on their performance. Not someone else's.

Teachers do get fired. Every year 2.1% of all teachers get fired for cause (ie. bad performance).

Are you just going to pretend that isn't the case? Are you going to dip out of this thread, pretend it never happened, and stick to your lie that "teachers can't be fired"?

I said it’s difficult. It is. Which is why you have to go straight to a strawman

 

[Swing]

these are people i knew and interacted with for years. one of them is intelligent and hardworking (though i don't consider 40 a week the grind stone, but still). the rest were dipshits who couldn't do anything else and in a couple cases failed at normal jobs and went into teaching. conversely i know a very sharp teacher who quit teaching to come work with me, so not a teacher any more and had to pass a test with a crazy high fail rate (majority fail) to get in.

If you're going to apply this to all teachers in terms of who is entering the job, I think we need to do better than assumptions based on past and present acquaintances. I mean, I still form opinions based on anecdotal evidence too, but I try not to base anything too substantive on those opinions without looking into things more.

And I really doubt the guys you describe as dipshits worked out to be decent teachers. Maybe they're average, but I doubt that too.

 

[luckyshot]

Can we fire the bad ones? No?

I said it’s difficult. It is. Which is why you have to go straight to a strawman

> You made a blanket statement (Bad teachers can't be fired)
> I provided statistics to show that it is false (Every year 2.1% of all teachers are fired for poor performance)
> You accuse me of a "strawman" argument

Lol.

Stay golden, pony boy.

2.1% out of how many thousands/millions of teachers? It's gotta be barely a drop in the bucket.

You realize that 2.1% of 200 is exactly the same sized "drop in the bucket" as 2.1% of 2 million... right...?

That's what percentage is...

 

[JohnnySagebrush]

2.1% out of how many thousands/millions of teachers? It's gotta be barely a drop in the bucket

Should have fired your teachers

 

[Gregolian]

You realize that 2.1% of 200 is exactly the same sized "drop in the bucket" as 2.1% of 2 million... right...?

That's what percentage is...

You don't fucking say.......

Jesus, my bigger point is there is going to be more than 2.1% of the teaching population that are fucking trash that won't be getting fired even though they should be.

Of the maybe 100 total teachers I had over the course of my time in school (meaning pre-college cause tenure and shit throws a huge wrench into this at the uni level) there were at least 5 that probably had no fucking business being a teacher in general.

 

[luckyshot]

these are people i knew and interacted with for years. one of them is intelligent and hardworking (though i don't consider 40 a week the grind stone, but still). the rest were dipshits who couldn't do anything else and in a couple cases failed at normal jobs and went into teaching. conversely i know a very sharp teacher who quit teaching to come work with me, so not a teacher any more and had to pass a test with a crazy high fail rate (majority fail) to get in.

Of course the guy who came to work with you was "sharp," but the ones who stayed in teaching were doofus losers with no other options...

Lol... Lemme ask you this, if the guy who left teaching to work with you is so sharp, how come he went into teaching in the first place if that isn't what he wanted to do?

You don't fucking say.......

Jesus, my bigger point is there is going to be more than 2.1% of the teaching population that are fucking trash that won't be getting fired even though they should be.

Of the maybe 100 total teachers I had over the course of my time in school (meaning pre-college cause tenure and shit throws a huge wrench into this at the uni level) there were at least 5 that probably had no fucking business being a teacher in general.

Don't get mad at me, man, you are the one who said, "2.1% out of how many thousands/millions of teachers? It's gotta be barely a drop in the bucket"

Beyond that, you are claiming that 5% of your teachers should have been fired. We currently fire 2.1% per year. So you are in effect saying (based on your extremely limited anecdotal experience) that about twice as many teachers should be fired.

OK, even if that's true, it's a long cry from the blanket statement "Can we fire bad teachers? No"-- the original claim of @cincymma79 that started us down this path...

 

[Gregolian]

Don't get mad at me, man, you are the one who said, "2.1% out of how many thousands/millions of teachers? It's gotta be barely a drop in the bucket"

Beyond that, you are claiming that 5% of your teachers should have been fired. We currently fire 2.1% per year. So you are in effect saying that about twice as many teachers should be fired (based on your extremely limited anecdotal experience).

OK, even if that's true, it's a long cry from "Can we fire bad teachers? No"-- the original claim of @cincymma79 that started us down this path...

I'll get mad all I want, thought this was America

That said, I think the bigger problem isn't that we "can't" fire bad teachers it's that school districts don't want to have to fight the unions to fire said bad teachers. It's easier, less headache inducing, and less monetarily taxing to just let the shitty teacher be shitty rather than get in a long drawn out process to fire a shitty essentially public employee.

 

[Goatenstein]

Oklahoma's teachers ignore most science and facts they don't deserve shit.

 

[luckyshot]

I'll get mad all I want, thought this was America

That said, I think the bigger problem isn't that we "can't" fire bad teachers it's that school districts don't want to have to fight the unions to fire said bad teachers. It's easier, less headache inducing, and less monetarily taxing to just let the shitty teacher be shitty rather than get in a long drawn out process to fire a shitty essentially public employee.

Well, actually, in most states it takes three to four years to earn tenure. During this time someone can be fired without any process.

So, schools get a good long trial period (if you can't figure out whether or not someone is going to be a decent teacher in four years... that's probably a "you problem").

After that there is due process.

The example people always trot out are the "old burned out teachers."

OK. But I'm sorry, if someone has worked in a town for 30 years, and they've maybe lost a few miles off the fastball, they at least deserve some due process before they're kicked out into the snow to start over again at 60 years old...

That's not asking too much is it? It shouldn't be.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

teachers can be fired easily, just like Federal Employees

the problem w/ both, lies in the performance reviews/other metrics. Shitty/poor performers routinely get mediocre/average reviews, which then makes firing for poor performance or patterns of misconduct much harder

IF the higher ups are doing their due diligence, however, it's quite easy

 

[Gregolian]

Well, actually, in most states it takes three to four years to earn tenure. During this time someone can be fired without any process.

So, schools get a good long trial period (if you can't figure out whether or not someone is going to be a decent teacher in four years... that's probably a you problem).

After that there is due process.

The example people always trot out are the "old burned out teachers."

OK. But I'm sorry, if someone has worked in a town for 30 years, and they've maybe lost a few miles off the fastball, they at least deserve some due process before they're kicked out into the snow to start over again at 60 years old...

That's not asking too much is it? It shouldn't be.

That first example there are issues with it. Yeah, they CAN fire them but will they? Say you're in bumfuck nowhere Nebraska, inner city Detroit/Baltimore... you won't exactly have a lineup outside your "hiring office" so wouldn't that make it so people are more willing to hold the shit-tier teachers simply out of convenience?

 

[luckyshot]

That first example there are issues with it. Yeah, they CAN fire them but will they? Say you're in bumfuck nowhere Nebraska, inner city Detroit/Baltimore... you won't exactly have a lineup outside your "hiring office" so wouldn't that make it so people are more willing to hold the shit-tier teachers simply out of convenience?

Lol. Very true, but how is this teachers' fault?

You are citing lack of competition for teaching jobs as the reason an administrator might be unwilling to fire a poor teacher.

OK...

...If you want to attract more/better candidates to ANY job in ANY field, what is the solution?

 

[HomerThompson]

*Oklahoma

@luckyshot

 

[HomerThompson]

I'd love to see a new labor revolution borne out of this.

 

[MiniCraque]

That first example there are issues with it. Yeah, they CAN fire them but will they? Say you're in bumfuck nowhere Nebraska, inner city Detroit/Baltimore... you won't exactly have a lineup outside your "hiring office" so wouldn't that make it so people are more willing to hold the shit-tier teachers simply out of convenience?

That would apply to any other job in that location that requires a degree, not just teachers. So what's your point?

 

[Gregolian]

That would apply to any other job in that location that requires a degree, not just teachers. So what's your point?

Shit tier teachers have a bigger impact on society than shit tier firefighters or attorneys.

 

[MiniCraque]

Shit tier teachers have a bigger impact on society than shit tier firefighters or attorneys.

Ok so there are two assertions you made so far:

1. Inner cities will have lower turnover rates because there aren't as many people available to hire.

2. Shit tier teachers have a bigger impact on society than shit tier firefighters or attorneys.

I find no connection between the two. It seems to me @luckyshot just fact-checked you and you're having trouble conceding.

 

[Prime Rib]

If you're going to apply this to all teachers in terms of who is entering the job, I think we need to do better than assumptions based on past and present acquaintances. I mean, I still form opinions based on anecdotal evidence too, but I try not to base anything too substantive on those opinions without looking into things more.

And I really doubt the guys you describe as dipshits worked out to be decent teachers. Maybe they're average, but I doubt that too.

Yeah, this anecdotal bullshit from @cincymma79 is most likely crap, as in it never happened or half-truths. And if it did it is just his opinion, and his opinion means shit to me, the same as it should to anybody else that has read a few of his posts.