Unpopular S&C Beliefs

[560ti]

Casuals like to throw around "natural athlete" or "god given talent" to justify them not having the commitment or work ethic as some pro athletes.

Kid I went to school with went first round in the NFL draft in 2016 and was a top combine performer. Classmates would always justify not being even close to his athletic level by labeling him as god given talent or natural athlete.

What really happened was he literally trained 5 to 6 days a week since 2006 , he had private coaching, his mother was a nutritionist, and he literally did zero drugs and alcohol.

 

[JonJonesLines]

Casuals like to throw around "natural athlete" or "god given talent" to justify them not having the commitment or work ethic as some pro athletes.

Kid I went to school with went first round in the NFL draft in 2016 and was a top combine performer. Classmates would always justify not being even close to his athletic level by labeling him as god given talent or natural athlete.

What really happened was he literally trained 5 to 6 days a week since 2006 , he had private coaching, his mother was a nutritionist, and he literally did zero drugs and alcohol.

Cool because there's also Randy Moss, Johnny Manziel, Ray Lewis, etc.

You are also absolutely high if that kid wasn't naturally gifted. Yes he worked his ass off but you can work your ass off and if you're 5'8 150 running a 5.4 40, then good luck in collegiate athletics.

 

[JonJonesLines]

There are a lot of guys who are supremely talented but go to college and do a bunch of drugs, get arrested, etc. There are also guys who are slightly less talented and work their ass off to be pros.

99% of the population doesn't have the athleticism or frame to put them in the conversation to play in the pros.

 

[560ti]

99% of the population doesn't have the athleticism or frame to put them in the conversation to play in the pros.

You could easily say 99.9% of the population doesn't have the time put in, technical instruction, consistency, or passion to get them professional level (funny how that doesn't fit there "god given talent" cop out mentality" ). Shocker, you actually have to put in high level effort/ability to be in consideration for professional and semi pro sports (these are traits that almost every highschool/amateur athlete lack).

you can work your ass off and if you're 5'8 150 running a 5.4 40, then good luck in collegiate athletics.

lol at having high level coaches and high level consistency/effort for 10 fucking years and yet your still only running a 5.4 40 yard dash (yeah sorry buddy, doesn't work like that).

Cool because there's also Randy Moss, Johnny Manziel, Ray Lewis, etc.

You are also absolutely high if that kid wasn't naturally gifted. Yes he worked his ass off but you can work your ass off and if you're 5'8 150 running a 5.4 40, then good luck in collegiate athletics.

Yes and No.

I see what your saying but I think people often overstate it or undermine what really got them into the pro's. Factors that you can't control do play a factor (especially in sports with no weightclasses) but alot of times its the kids that have the elite coaches, the kids who didn't have major surgery, and the kids that where the hardest working/most consistent. The kid in question (Corey Coleman) was a hair shy of 5"10 and weighted 175lbs (3/4s of the highschool team was taller and larger than him)


In the case I listed, the other receivers on his highschool team didn't get college offers. Not having his exact DNA was NOT the main reason they didn't get in.

They didn't get offers because they didn't put in even a fraction of the amount of effort, time, or work yet majority of people would simply say "its because they weren't freaks" (its basically a copout )

 

[JonJonesLines]

You could easily say 99.9% of the population doesn't have the time put in, technical instruction, consistency, or passion to get them professional level (funny how that doesn't fit there "god given talent" cop out mentality" ). Shocker, you actually have to put in high level effort/ability to be in consideration for professional and semi pro sports (these are traits that almost every highschool/amateur athlete lack).

lol at having high level coaches and high level consistency/effort for 10 fucking years and yet your still only running a 5.4 40 yard dash (yeah sorry buddy, doesn't work like that).

Yes and No.

I see what your saying but I think people often overstate it or undermine what really got them into the pro's. Factors that you can't control do play a factor (especially in sports with no weightclasses) but alot of times its the kids that have the elite coaches, the kids who didn't have major surgery, and the kids that where the hardest working/most consistent. The kid in question (Corey Coleman) was a hair shy of 5"10 and weighted 175lbs (3/4s of the highschool team was taller and larger than him)


In the case I listed, the other receivers on his highschool team didn't get college offers. Not having his exact DNA was NOT the main reason they didn't get in.

They didn't get offers because they didn't put in even a fraction of the amount of effort, time, or work yet majority of people would simply say "its because they weren't freaks" (its basically a copout )

I get what you're saying but there are genetic factors that limit speed, size, etc. Corey Coleman also ran a 4.37, he maxed his speed out. He could've not trained and ran a 4.6/4.7. That's how much of speed is genetic.

My buddy spent a lot of years (from 4th grade to senior year) working with a guy who has sent kids to D1 & NFL. His fastest 40 time? 5.1 at 165lbs. So yeah that's how it fucking works sometimes.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Rippetoe never said that olympics lifts dont improve vertical.....he says that getting your squat and deadlift up is the first thing to do....later on you add olympic lifts or variants and can bump up your vert a little that way but 25% is around the max you can add to your vertical

Its funny on facebook there is this expert trying to sell people on being able to increase ones vertical from 20 inches to like 40 inches.....ive been around sports my whole life and have never seen anything vlose to that otherwise we would have 60 inch jumpers

Speed is the same way trained for but sprint mechanics and actualy sprinting must be added of course

 

[NurseKnuckles]

vertical is a funny thing. Its definitely something you're born with. You can improve it somewhat under certain circumstances. For the everyday young athlete, in order to improve everything in their sport getting generally stronger is the way to go. Squats, pushing and pressing couple times a week. practice your skills a lot, and get some cardio in couple times a week, and you'll be a better athlete than you were yesterday.

 

[560ti]

My buddy spent a lot of years (from 4th grade to senior year) working with a guy who has sent kids to D1 & NFL. His fastest 40 time? 5.1 at 165lbs. So yeah that's how it fucking works sometimes.

No offense to your friend but thats pathetic. I clocked a 4.6 flat at the MJ performance center last year and I don't really have any proper S&C coaches (I am an mma competitor and bust my ass but still, I don't train specifically for dash's/verticals and my workouts are not geared towards it).

If I had proper athletic specific coaches since Jr High (like Corey) I would easily be a 4.5 flat and could potentially break into the very high 4.4s. I would hardly consider myself a genetic freak (hell most of my life I was overweight).

Point i'm trying to make is people neglect the actual coaching/work that goes into it and simply label it as freak occurance. A major reason why he is a freak is because he's spent an entire decade training at a high level (almost every amateur athlete won't even train a single day at a high level, let alone a decade). If you had taken the 8 other receivers who he played on the team with and had them do the same exact workouts and given them the same exact coaches, I guarantee you at least half of them would of gotten D1 college scholarships.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

you cant outwork genetics

you can however choose a sport that is more in line with your genetics and have more success

 

[JonJonesLines]

No offense to your friend but thats pathetic. I clocked a 4.6 flat at the MJ performance center last year and I don't really have any proper S&C coaches (I am an mma competitor and bust my ass but still, I don't train specifically for dash's/verticals and my workouts are not geared towards it).

If I had proper athletic specific coaches since Jr High (like Corey) I would easily be a 4.5 flat and could potentially break into the very high 4.4s. I would hardly consider myself a genetic freak (hell most of my life I was overweight).

Point i'm trying to make is people neglect the actual coaching/work that goes into it and simply label it as freak occurance. A major reason why he is a freak is because he's spent an entire decade training at a high level (almost every amateur athlete won't even train a single day at a high level, let alone a decade). If you had taken the 8 other receivers who he played on the team with and had them do the same exact workouts and given them the same exact coaches, I guarantee you at least half of them would of gotten D1 college scholarships.

I highly doubt you ran a 4.6 unless you can easily dunk a basketball.

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/reality-you-cant-run-a-sub-50-forty-022414/

 

[JonJonesLines]

No offense to your friend but thats pathetic. I clocked a 4.6 flat at the MJ performance center last year and I don't really have any proper S&C coaches (I am an mma competitor and bust my ass but still, I don't train specifically for dash's/verticals and my workouts are not geared towards it).

If I had proper athletic specific coaches since Jr High (like Corey) I would easily be a 4.5 flat and could potentially break into the very high 4.4s. I would hardly consider myself a genetic freak (hell most of my life I was overweight).

Point i'm trying to make is people neglect the actual coaching/work that goes into it and simply label it as freak occurance. A major reason why he is a freak is because he's spent an entire decade training at a high level (almost every amateur athlete won't even train a single day at a high level, let alone a decade). If you had taken the 8 other receivers who he played on the team with and had them do the same exact workouts and given them the same exact coaches, I guarantee you at least half of them would of gotten D1 college scholarships.

4.5-4.9 speed is absolutely elite, D1 speed. My buddy that ran a 5.1 with laser timing could touch rim at 5'11, very athletic guy. He was all state in lacrosse and played D2 lacrosse. You have a very inflated idea of what speed is.

 

[560ti]

I highly doubt you ran a 4.6 unless you can easily dunk a basketball.

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/reality-you-cant-run-a-sub-50-forty-022414/

I can dunk (not easily though) but even then that quote in the article is complete BS. You could train specifically to dunk and still not increase your 40 at all (there not mutually exclusive). Running a 4.6 did take some coaching (the mma gym i was training at at the time was sending the fighters to the michael johnson performance center in north texas). My starts where garbage and improving them was the only way i was able to get in the 4.6 range.

"4.5-4.9 speed is absolutely elite" I somewhat agree with this. If your a real athlete (years of experience and good coaching), getting those times isn't unheard of. Problem is most amateur athletes (highschool sports and weekend warriors) aren't what I would consider true athletes (lack the mental strength, coaching, effort and consistency).

There is a direct correlation between quality of coaching/effort and the end result. People love to discredit and say that little billy is a generic freak because he plays D1 soccer but everyone whose been on his club team since for the last 12 years are also playing college sports as well.......

 

[corpse]

i can drunk also. i can drunk a lot.

 

[Sano]

I can dunk (not easily though) but even then that quote in the article is complete BS. You could train specifically to dunk and still not increase your 40 at all (there not mutually exclusive). Running a 4.6 did take some coaching (the mma gym i was training at at the time was sending the fighters to the michael johnson performance center in north texas). My starts where garbage and improving them was the only way i was able to get in the 4.6 range.

"4.5-4.9 speed is absolutely elite" I somewhat agree with this. If your a real athlete (years of experience and good coaching), getting those times isn't unheard of. Problem is most amateur athletes (highschool sports and weekend warriors) aren't what I would consider true athletes (lack the mental strength, coaching, effort and consistency).

There is a direct correlation between quality of coaching/effort and the end result. People love to discredit and say that little billy is a generic freak because he plays D1 soccer but everyone whose been on his club team since for the last 12 years are also playing college sports as well.......

So you ran a 40 yard dash in 4,6, without training for it, which by your own admission is in the elite territory. Yet with training you might cut 0,1 of the time. How is this supposed to disprove the importance of genetics?

Obviously you have to train something, especially a sport, to get good at it. Goes without saying. How well you respond to the training you will also never know before you actually do it, but that is again in part a genetic component.

With that said I agree with you that proper S&C training and mechanics matters a lot too, more or less depending on where the individual is in his training and who it is.

@JonJonesLines I was thinking about what you mentioned earlier bout the "athletic" drills transferring to the mat only in your good athletes. Might have something to do with their innate ability to neurologically understand and apply different movemens under different circumstances.

In most people though, there is a missing link between teaching them specific cues, strength exercises and biomechanics in isolation, and then having it transfer to their performance.

Let's use "faulty" running mechanics like say valgus collapse of the knee and pronation of the feet on the supporting leg during the stand phase. Yes we can work on anti-foot pronation and glut med work and single leg variations to support that during the S&C sessions, and most of the time it does help, but without actually learning the proper motor patterns and creating a new mind map it most likely wont transfer to the biomechanics while running. That's the missing link. You have to strenghten the muscles that needs it and create the awareness of it first, but then you have to apply it during the actual activity with awareness. The greater the feedback the better.

http://www.gaitposture.com/article/S0966-6362(15)00967-4/abstract

 

[JonJonesLines]

A 4.6 40 would make you one of the 3-5 most explosive/athletic fighters in MMA. A 4.6 means you're faster than most NFL RB's and only slower than WR and CB's.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

No offense to your friend but thats pathetic. I clocked a 4.6 flat at the MJ performance center last year and I don't really have any proper S&C coaches (I am an mma competitor and bust my ass but still, I don't train specifically for dash's/verticals and my workouts are not geared towards it).

If I had proper athletic specific coaches since Jr High (like Corey) I would easily be a 4.5 flat and could potentially break into the very high 4.4s. I would hardly consider myself a genetic freak (hell most of my life I was overweight).

Point i'm trying to make is people neglect the actual coaching/work that goes into it and simply label it as freak occurance. A major reason why he is a freak is because he's spent an entire decade training at a high level (almost every amateur athlete won't even train a single day at a high level, let alone a decade). If you had taken the 8 other receivers who he played on the team with and had them do the same exact workouts and given them the same exact coaches, I guarantee you at least half of them would of gotten D1 college scholarships.

4.6 40m? That's really fast. Like truly unbelievable fast.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

I don't know about the accuracy of that dunking statement, but seems like a pretty good yard stick, in a very general sense.

 

[Cmart]

I don't know about the accuracy of that dunking statement, but seems like a pretty good yard stick, in a very general sense.

Helps to be tall. I'm guessing Halfthor B, Brian Shaw, and Eddie Hall can all dunk, but none can run a sub-5 40. I know 400-pound Mark Henry can dunk.

 

[aus101]

You could easily say 99.9% of the population doesn't have the time put in, technical instruction, consistency, or passion to get them professional level (funny how that doesn't fit there "god given talent" cop out mentality" ). Shocker, you actually have to put in high level effort/ability to be in consideration for professional and semi pro sports (these are traits that almost every highschool/amateur athlete lack).

lol at having high level coaches and high level consistency/effort for 10 fucking years and yet your still only running a 5.4 40 yard dash (yeah sorry buddy, doesn't work like that).

Yes and No.

I see what your saying but I think people often overstate it or undermine what really got them into the pro's. Factors that you can't control do play a factor (especially in sports with no weightclasses) but alot of times its the kids that have the elite coaches, the kids who didn't have major surgery, and the kids that where the hardest working/most consistent. The kid in question (Corey Coleman) was a hair shy of 5"10 and weighted 175lbs (3/4s of the highschool team was taller and larger than him)


In the case I listed, the other receivers on his highschool team didn't get college offers. Not having his exact DNA was NOT the main reason they didn't get in.

They didn't get offers because they didn't put in even a fraction of the amount of effort, time, or work yet majority of people would simply say "its because they weren't freaks" (its basically a copout )

There's so many athletes though, "hard work and training, coaches etc" isn't just something only one or two driven individuals are performing, it's the baseline. Everyone is going "all in", or at least large numbers are depending upon the sport. Claiming "it's not genetics" when it comes to sporting success comes across as completely clueless.

Anyone who has ever played a sport quickly realises with the same environment not everyone is the same after all.

 

[ItsTimeToShrekYouUp]

With anything it's usually 75% nurture and 25% nature. At the top level most guys have the same or similar levels of nurture but nature varies and is usually why some guys are gatekeepers and why some a long reigning champions.