Unpopular S&C Beliefs | Page 16

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Synapse, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. HOLA Red Belt

    HOLA
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    On the topic of squats and athletes...

    I was just listening to an interview with Michael Johnson (sprinter not fighter) talking about how he never did them. He did walking lunges, step ups, harness runs and unilateral stuff like that. IIRC Clyde Hart didn't have any of his guys do them.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  2. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

    JonJonesLines
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    1) You can't make someone more athletic. Clean & Jerk, Clean Pull, Snatch, etc is all an absolute joke
    2) In order to get stronger, you need to lift that specific body part 2x a week
    3) S&C coaches for the most part are making kids weaker.
     
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  3. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

    JonJonesLines
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    The Ohio State wrestling team, top 2-3 every year, focuses heavily on deadlifting...far more than clean pulls, clean and jerks, etc. Look at Dustin Myers, their strength coach, on Instagram.
     
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  4. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    This guy?



    What are they deadlifting? Which variations? How often? What else are they doing? Can you link the training program?
     
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  5. RyanR Brown Belt

    RyanR
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    My unpopular opinion which I swear by and wish I knew sooner:

    High rep bodyweight exercises (push ups, squats, pull ups, dips, burpees) are overall amazing as assistance lifts in a program for grappling and MMA.
     
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  6. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

    JonJonesLines
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    Yes that guy.

    I can't link a program, he would prefer you buy it from him, but I've been to 2 seminars with him in their room. They deadlift twice a week, typically sumo, and hit the other big lifts twice a week as well (squat: typically one day of regular squats/other day zercher squats, bench/military press, rows).
     
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  7. Sano Brown Belt

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    I just listened to two podcasts with him. Seems like a good coach.

    He also said that they do power cleans, rehab/prehab work, starts the younger guys off with kettlebells or the bar, form over weight, he scales depending on the person and so forth. As well as they tone down the compounds during in-season to once a week. Point is, it is about smart programming and it's not as black and white.

    Besides, Wrestling is another beast than MMA, which is another beast than Kickboxing, which is another beast than Boxing.

    He made some other pretty salient points like not confusing correlation with causation, meaning that the wrestling coaches at Ohio does a damn fine job and that he doesn't claim to have the absolute answers. He's obviously a great coach too.

    When you say that you can't make someone more athletic, to which extent and what do you mean exactly? You can't make someone increase their vert, move better, more balanced, more agile? I know some of these might be marginal improved, but they can be improved.
     
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  8. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

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    Now when I last heard him, he said that they stopped doing clean pulls as they started doing more band work.

    So when I say I don't think you can make someone more athletic, I mean you can't change someone's athletic performance in terms of speed, explosiveness, etc. So you make increase their vert but they'll see no noticeable change in performance. What I do think is that you can make someone far stronger and that is a far better use of your time. Prehab and strength building should be the focus of every S&C coach
     
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  9. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    Arguable imo, but it depends on the sport. I mean, let's take something like basketball. Doing clean pulls and plyos, while having a decent strength base, directly translates to your performance as increasing your vert is important. Same with many track and field disciplines with specific, and measurable, attributes.

    I see where you are coming from, but I don't agree that you can't improve someones speed and explosiveness. RFD (rate of force development), muscle contraction velocity, neurological co-ordination, all of these physiological factors can be improved. How well they transfer and under what conditions varies a lot. Both depending on the specificity of the program and the individuals ability. Obviously being a great athlete is mostly genetic.

    Talking about strength training, strength adaptions are also to a degree specific. Meaning that joint angle, velocity, eccentric vs concentric and so forth all adapts according to what you are doing. The transferability of certain strength exercises are questionable too, and that's why you need a sensible program. Myers talked about mimicking position or weaknesses on the mat, which is smart.

    Something like medicin ball slams in various directions, hammers, plyo pushups, one arm dumbbell snatches, resisted band work, even landmine presses and the like can transfer pretty well to punching if programmed correctly. Triple extension exercises (like power cleans, depth jumps, CMJ jumps, verts), skip drills, single leg jumps, and so on can transfer pretty well to kicking and kneeing.

    Unilateral or single leg training, agility drills, foot strenghtening, vestibular and hand-eye co-ordination drills and so on can transfer well to balance, footwork and movement. Etc.

    While I agree with you that strength training and rehab/prehab should be a staple, I would argue that a few other things should as well. Obviously at the end of the day your job as a S&C coach is 1) keep them injury free and healthy, 2) improve performance.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  10. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

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    Like you said, it varies from person to person and the results are generally based on genetics. A great athlete is going to get more out of clean pulls than an average athlete.

    I am looking at this from a biased view point, I will admit that. I am a HS wrestling coach and have been for the past 12 years. My great athletes benefit vastly more from any training of "athleticism" than do everyone else. If I was the S&C for Alabama football, then we would include a lot more speed work, Plyo work, clean pulls, etc. That would be because 1) I'm now focusing on an athlete competing a lot more in open space 2) I'm no longer dealing with anyone who I'd consider below a "very good athlete"

    We do a box jump/broad jump & Med Ball Slams/Throws as our Plyo work. We deadlift & bench together/squat & row together (pretty typical format I believe). We do some cone drills in regards to reaction. I see the carry over when training my 1-3 great athletes, I don't when I'm coaching my 25-30 below to above average and I see some aspects carry over with my 4-6 good athletes.

    I apologize if I'm rambling all over but I hope it makes sense
     
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  11. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    It makes total sense. You have a very good point, and one that is not talked about very often. I'd like to think that it has more to do with exercises selection not suiting the individual, and that one size does not fit all, but the honest truth is that some people are simply just gifted. You can only do so much.

    At the same time, it's our job to work with what we've got. I'm very green, lots of ideas but still figuring everything out. I hope to find ways to improve training and outcome for all types along the way. At this point I feel like it's important to keep learning.
     
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  12. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

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    I completely agree. You have to work with what you have and figure out how to improve it. A big part of that is learning. We had 3 shoulder injuries about 5 years ago that ended seasons and another 1 that were very bothersome. We stopped strictly pressing overhead and went to a landmine press and we started to add 10 band pull-aparts after every set of bench. We have had one shoulder injury since. I'm always looking for ways to improve the athlete and keep them on the mat.
     
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  13. Sano Brown Belt

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    That's cool that you were able to adjust the program and see the benefits. Too many coaches out there are unfortunately unwilling to change things up if it doesn't strictly adhere to their paradigm. Even if they are not getting results or worse causing injuries and pain.

    While I got the gist of it from the podcast, I think I might buy Myers books (in and off season) as reference and form a proper opinion on it. Should be something to learn, and he seemed like a very sensible guy. I lean towards striking sports usually, but I like wrestling and MMA as well.
     
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  14. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

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    I didn't like him much as a person but he's a damn good coach. I use a modified version of both of his programs (we don't have all of the equipment and I personally like lifting 4x a week in season).
     
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  15. corpse Orange Belt

    corpse
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    a good discussion. thanks, guys.
     
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  16. corpse Orange Belt

    corpse
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    i think japanese wrestlers and the kyokushin guys would agree with you
     
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  17. Midnighter Black Belt

    Midnighter
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    I think a lot of people would agree with him...

    Not sure how that's an unpopular opinion at all.
     
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  18. miaou barely keeping it together

    miaou
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    Yeah, I really don't buy that.

    Certainly not in any sports that involve sprinting (ex soccer, rugby, basketball, handball, etc.) other than actual pure sprinting (where athletes have an extremely refined motor pattern). Even in actual sprinting, I am pretty doubtful of that proposition.
     
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  19. Sano Brown Belt

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    I was talking about actual sprinting yes. The gist of it I picked up from a track and field coach who coached the youth national team in the 200 and 400m, but I read simular from other sources and it fits with the litterature, and biomechanics. Track and field is one of those few areas where the good coaches actually know what they are talking about.

    I'm not going to say that you can't benefit from loading at a higher percentage, but in the context of sprinting performance I personally would opt not to do it. Maybe there would be some greater benefit during the initial part of the acceleration. I know there has been a few studies with heavier load (relatively speaking, I recall in one the loads were about 40%BW) that gained more during the acceleration phase than lighter loads, but as far as I know they were untrained runners and they didn't measure the effect on the entirety of the race, only the first 5-10 meters.

    I have a good friend who does the S&C work for a semi-pro basketball team and he uses heavy prowlers with good results. So again it depends on who you are dealing with as well and what the goal is, as you say.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  20. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

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    I think in-season, heavy prowler is exactly what most athletes could use (besides sprinters). I use it closer to competition dates in order to still get a good quad exercise in without the soreness that comes along with squats. Typically we will squat on Monday and use the prowler on Wednesday if we compete on Friday & Saturday.
     
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