Unpopular S&C Beliefs | Page 15

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Synapse, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Messages:
    6,863
    Likes Received:
    5,118
    A good friend of mine played feetball for Virginia Tech and they all did squats and power cleans regularly. Feetball players need powerful legs. You get powerful legs from those lifts. It was a part of their official off-season S&C program. Again, they aren't doing it like they are training for a powerlifting meet. They incorporate it into their entire program in a way that makes sense.

    Squats and deadlifts are the meat and potatoes of any good S&C program. You don't often see them doing them on pictures and articles because it's boring. They want photos of them doing all sorts of crazy exercises, but that's not where they make their real gains.

    Any healthy pro athlete who trains in S&C is going to squat and deadlift or do some basic variation of it. It's a fundamental movement. For all of the sports other than feetball I listed, I have personally seen offseason S&C packets from various teams that list squats and such.

    The one program that surprised me was the offseason Seahawks defensive lineman program, which only squats 2x week for like 3 sets of 6/4/2. They also did powercleans for several sets of doubles. I'm sure by now it's different, but I got a hold of that packet when I worked for a high end S&C gym through one of my trainers who worked with the team.
     
    #281
  2. JauntyAngle International man of mystery

    JauntyAngle
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,433
    Likes Received:
    689
    Location:
    Classified
    Yeah, I have a friend who played football in a US college team, they did squats and stuff. But with all due respect, that's not very high level. And it's not indicative of how high level training is done in football.

    And I am totally 100% on board with people who play team sports squatting etc. I've been posting here 7-8 years, after all.

    I was more interested in any evidence, or even anecdotes, that high level professional football players do heavy squats and deadlifts. IE players from the English Premiership, La Liga, Bundesliga, Seria A.
     
    #282
  3. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Messages:
    6,863
    Likes Received:
    5,118
    http://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/training/back-squat

    http://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/training/gym-tom-cleverley


    Well that wasn't hard. All I did was search "English Premier League Strength and Conditioning squat". It was the first few results. There are two different athletes that barbell squat. I'm sure they tailor the weights to what is appropriate for their sport and level of fitness, but I think it's pretty clear that professional athletes are doing squats and other major compound movements like deadlifts during the strength and power phase of their S&C regimen.

    I think the real issue is that tons of regular people are fucking lazy and want to make every excuse not to train in something that's challenging to them. Squats and deadlifts suck. They are a bitch to load. They are a bitch to perform correctly. They are a bitch to recover from. When someone see's some pro athlete doing something silly for a magazine, they get this incorrect idea in their head that the athlete actually does that silly exercise, when in reality they don't. Their S&C coaches have them do a number of things, usually including squat and deadlift.
     
    #283
  4. JauntyAngle International man of mystery

    JauntyAngle
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,433
    Likes Received:
    689
    Location:
    Classified
    Sorry, I don't want to be a dick... but I meant evidence that they lift heavy.

    In the first video, the coach says to start with the bar or nothing, and slowly work up to about your bodyweight, for sets of 10. You'll notice in the video that the player is quarter squatting 60kg. In the second link, it says that Tom Cleverly works up to 4 sets of squats at 80kg, and deadlifts 6 reps at 50kg.

    I have seen this sort of thing before- signs that they lift light. I haven't seen or heard them going heavier.

    Again, not to be a dick, but I've never seen it, and I have heard multiple credible reports that they don't go heavy. So I am looking for quite a bit more than these two links. I don't think a video of someone quarter-squatting 60 and "I am sure that they do more in real life" is enough.
     
    #284
    Sano and Phlog like this.
  5. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Messages:
    6,863
    Likes Received:
    5,118

    YOU ARE SUCH A DICK!!!!!!!!!!!

    I kid.... I kid.....

    I do get your point Jaunty, and I would agree that I doubt many feetball players, especially outside of US feetball, are squatting "heavy". They have no real need to develop a 200 kilo squat to be powerful enough for feetball. A feetball only weighs at most 450 grams, about 16 ounces. Not really too heavy, so I think ingraining the movement pattern and teaching the CNS through moderate weight, which is probably the heaviest they train.

    I just figured those couple examples would suffice for my point that they dot train squats and deadlifts. I found those two examples with 5 minutes of work. If one researched for a day or two seriously, and I think you'll find a large number of feetballers are doing squats/deadlifts, and do them heavy enough.
     
    #285
  6. Noodles03 Blue Belt

    Noodles03
    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    263
    Location:
    Southern California
    I was listening to Nick Curson on the Joe Rogan Podcast and he was talking about how training with uphill sprints doesn't increase your speed. For what ever reason I have hard time following his thought process.
     
    #286
  7. Badger67 Taxidea taxus

    Badger67
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    1,889
    Location:
    Canada
    It doesn't. Downhill does. Running uphill while is great for conditioning, and building strength at that level, it does little for improvements in velocity, coordination and balance. Running uphill you lose stride length, stride anticipation, and faster strides in general because you have to hoist your hip further up rather than actually run which has a lot more hamstring dominance to the extension of the hip which is the bulk of your push off, not just quad extension.

    Sprinting requires rapid strides in succession(Frequency) with a good length and coordination/balance. Think of downhill running as over-fast movement.

    Lastly, you get fatigued quicker running uphill. How much acceleration can you accumulate while fatigued?
     
    #287
  8. selfcritical Brown Belt

    selfcritical
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,435
    Likes Received:
    511
    It won't if already have dialed in sprinting technique and well-developed speed. There's much lower hamstring activation in hill sprints. the torso angle is different, ground contact is longer. They're good for specific strength and for not getting injured. Resisted level sprints and downhill sprints are better at developing peak velocity, although they are also more likely to fuck you up.

    If you're not a particularly good sprinter, they might make you faster because almost any high velocity movement will improve you when you suck.
     
    #288
    Sano, Noodles03 and Badger67 like this.
  9. selfcritical Brown Belt

    selfcritical
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,435
    Likes Received:
    511
    More acute fatigue, but less accumulated in my experience. Hitting real peak speeds fucks you up a lot more the next day than a hill session imho
     
    #289
  10. Badger67 Taxidea taxus

    Badger67
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    1,889
    Location:
    Canada
    It does, but thats sprinting for ya when you're at peak speeds. You will get burnt out.
    Your post did a better job clarifying the difference between non sprinters like most of us and actual sprinters.
     
    #290
  11. PivotPunch Red Belt

    PivotPunch
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    9,596
    Likes Received:
    1,989
    I wonder if thats an oldschool mentallity though. Because wouldn't nthe main purpose of those exercises be anyway injury prvention? kind alike in sprinting. Footballers/soccer players sprint rapidly while changing directions , jump explosively collide with each other and do so even when they are tired.
    Lifting for injury prvention would seem like them main reason to do so.
    Isn't that one of the main reaosns why sprinters lift?
    i'm obviously no expert and maybe they think it affects their recovery and thus cardio too much to lift heavier but for ibnjury prvention purposes shouldn't they lift heavier?
     
    #291
  12. pokerandbeer Green Belt

    pokerandbeer
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    108
    I was recruited by a D1 school for both basketball and baseball....at that particular school(Lamar)the strength training was left up to the individual believe it or not for basketball.....the Coach for baseball never would allow pitchers to squat like at all. it was ridiculous but the players ended up sneaking in squat sessions anyways. that said he was a very good coach Jim Gilligan at Lamar for a very very long time.
     
    #292
  13. Noodles03 Blue Belt

    Noodles03
    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    263
    Location:
    Southern California
    Thank you Badger67 and self critical for the explanation.
     
    #293
    Badger67 likes this.
  14. ripskater Steel Belt

    ripskater
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2011
    Messages:
    32,561
    Likes Received:
    27,517
    IMO, running short hill sprints can help your start and first few steps of a sprint.
     
    #294
  15. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Messages:
    6,863
    Likes Received:
    5,118
    That's a whole another discussion, but yes I believe barbell training done for strength and conditioning is great for injury prevention. I never feel as solid as when I'm doing barbell squats and deadlifts. Your knees feel stable. Your back and core feels good. Your tendons and ligaments get tougher. Your bone density gets heavier. Barbells are basically life lol.

    I get that a lot of people have different training methods, but personally I look at people weird who will spend time doing strength and conditioning and don't do barbell movements as the foundation of their program. The big barbell movements will serve most everyone's purpose efficiently using Prilepin's Table. If you want to get strong, lift them moderately heavy for a moderate reps. If you want to get powerful (fast), lift them heavy as you can for singles/doubles. If you want to get muscular endurance lift them light for a bunch of reps. That's the meat. Throw in some accessory work to fix any weak points. You will have a healthy, well rounded athlete.
     
    #295
  16. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    17,788
    Likes Received:
    2,559
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    You do hear people say that. Rippetoe I've heard plenty of times say that cleans won't help your vertical, which both seems counter intuitive and runs counter to my personal experience of gaining a few inches on my jump when I started cleaning regularly. I mean, it's basically a weighted jump. How is that not going to help you jump higher?
     
    #296
  17. selfcritical Brown Belt

    selfcritical
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,435
    Likes Received:
    511
  18. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    3,909
    Likes Received:
    5,874
    Location:
    Denmark
    Badger and selfcritical talked a bit about how the mechanics are different when running uphill from regular sprinting. As they said, there is more hamstring activation and you are also using your hip flexors a lot more. Now that being said, uphill sprinting, besides being safer on the joints and a good workout, can improve the acceleration part of the sprint to some degree. If it's not too steep, it's very simular to this:

    [​IMG]

    Again, key is that is has to not be too steep. Also, you can use a prowler, but it shouldn't be much heavier than 10% of your BW. As soon as the weight gets heavy enough to mess up your running technique, you are practicing bad motor patterns and it wont transfer well. Same with the incline of the hill. If the technique is all over the place, it's no good.

    Now, in explaining why sprinting downhill makes you faster, we first have to examine what makes a good sprint. What are the characteristics of a fast sprint and what does a sprinter look like during top speed? Most studies show that the best sprinters are the ones with the least time on the ground, longer stride lenght AND with their feet under them. Feet further ahead of your center of mass/line of gravity acts as a brake and also mean you'll be in contact with the ground for a longer time. When looking at the muscles being used, a sprinter running at top speed is very upright. At that time it is primarily the knee extensors (quads) and hip extensors (glutes) that's being used. Running down hill simulates all these mechanics. Upright position, forces you to use more hip extension, less ground contact, longer stride lenght and feet further back.

    Last thing is the physiological adaptions. Running at top speed is in itself a plyometric exercise. The stretch shortening cycle is at play. Sprinting downhill "overloads" the eccentric part of the muscle contractions and in turn enhances the concentric part (myotatic reflex and elastic energy) and release of energy. Helps you get rid of some of the protective reflexes too (like the golgi tendon reflex) and stiffening up the muscles, leading to more power pushed into the ground. Not to mention the other neuromuscular and explosive adaptions by running that fast. You are basicly forcing your body to adapt to a higher speed. Weightlifting with moderate/heavy weights helps with the protective reflexes too btw.

    I think it's important to add that sprinting/running downhill is pretty advanced stuff. Technique is key, and running downhill challenges balance and coordination a lot. If you can't use proper technique, don't do it yet. Not to mention the great amount of strain on your joints. Less hamstring activation, less deceleration, greater load, more force right through the joints. Increase the degrees of the decline gradually and don't do it too often or for too long.

    Running uphill should be implemented in any sprinting program imo. As we talked about it helps with the acceleration part, it strenghtens your hamstrings (injury prevention) and it helps recruit muscle fibers.
     
    #298
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
  19. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    3,909
    Likes Received:
    5,874
    Location:
    Denmark
    #299
  20. MMouse Brown Belt

    MMouse
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,039
    Likes Received:
    807
    Location:
    new york
    bumping this awesome thread again
     
    #300
    ericaz, Sano and Phlog like this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"