University of Alaska study on WTC Building 7 concludes it could not have come down due to fires | Page 21

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by shadow_priest_x, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. splendica Purple Belt

    splendica
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    This can be such an obviously heated conversation, maybe as much as any to be honest. I had a relative nearly come over the table at Thanksgiving one year because I even suggested there may have been some corruption involved, or that I believed there was. I mean I wasn't pushing anything, and really wasn't trying to start anything either. But his reaction was pretty much like I was peeing on a veteran's grave or something.
     
    #401
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  2. HunterSdVa29 Respect, tho

    HunterSdVa29
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    they had motive and desire, similarly minded cats vanbombed the WTC prior in the 90s. And they were just randos from Pakistan largely
     
    #402
  3. NakedRare White Belt

    NakedRare
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    #403
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  4. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
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    You call them idiots, but I imagine you couldn't name 3 of them off the top of your head. I also bet you have no idea what any of their background was. So how you can so boldly declare them to be idiots is beyond me.

    And why would a dialysis machine prevent bin Laden from orchestrating a terror plot? He was a highly respected jihadist with tons of support and resources. It's highly likely that he wasn't the actual leading force for the logistics of the attack, but more of an ideological leader.

    These guys were smart enough to learn how to fly a plane, but they're idiots?

    You don't know the first thing about the hijackers do you?


    Which conspiracies are you talking about? Just curious.

    I totally agree that the government went CYA mode on the commission. They definitely didn't want to admit to any shortcomings or incompetency on their part. It's still an incredibly long leap to a malicious conspiracy from there.

    To me, the simplest reason for no conspiracy is the hijackers behavior in the United States. They took flight lessons and bought tickets at the same time for the attacks. So either the airport and all those private flight lesson companies are involved, or those hijackers committed the attacks.

    What kills me is when conspiracy theorists use descriptions on the hijackers flight skills from the schools as a reason to why they couldn't have done the attacks. But if that was true, why were they taking flying lessons?
     
    #404
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  5. HunterSdVa29 Respect, tho

    HunterSdVa29
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    #405
  6. NakedRare White Belt

    NakedRare
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    You could name none of them as you believe the 19 names they handed you on the news were the actual hijackers. The CIA or the FBI admitted that the hijackers used fake and stolen passports. That evidence alone PROVES that no one knows who "the hijackers" were.

    Try at least learning the story you have spent hours on here defending.
     
    #406
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  7. NakedRare White Belt

    NakedRare
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    Read the times article yourself. Geez!
     
    #407
  8. HunterSdVa29 Respect, tho

    HunterSdVa29
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    somebody needs to edit the Wiki page on that instance then, pronto.......
     
    #408
  9. Bloody Pulp Silver Belt

    Bloody Pulp
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    HEATED CONVERSATION CAN'T MELT STEEL BEAMS.

    Official story btfo.

    <NightKingBringIt>
     
    #409
  10. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
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    <YeahOKJen>

    The hijackers tried to alter their passports in some instances. Others didn't. It's funny that you'll accept that from the government but nothing else because it fits your retarded beliefs.

    Of course the fact that Saudi Arabia and the international community agrees with the identity of the hijackers means nothing to you because it doesn't fit the story you want to sell.

    The alterations on the passports is something I've known about. It's well documented and again, not a secret that undermines the case. It doesn't change anything. It only strengthens the point that they were making alterations to their passports in the exact same method that Al Qaeda was known to use.

    https://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/staff_statements/staff_statement_1.pdf

    You're really getting stretched thin on your arguments. It's seriously pathetic at this point.

    At least learn the science and math you've spent hours on here trying to debunk with your wild conspiracy theories.

    Durrrr freefall speeds are impossible durrrr! Just open your eyes durrrr! I don't know shit about free fall and physics but it's ridiculous that it fell at near free fall durrrrrr! What? You want me to explain what speed it would fall at based on my theory? Oh no I can't..... Look over there! Did you see that lamp? Totally not changing subjects but let's talk about something else! *Drools down chin*.

    -
    NakedRare
     
    #410
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  11. EnterTheNinja Orange Belt

    EnterTheNinja
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    Here is a recent story of cops planting evidence.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/02/us/baltimore-police-body-camera-videos/index.html

    So to answer your question:
    Yes, I wholeheartedly believe that someone planting a passport to fit their narrative sounds more believable than a magic passport magically floating to the ground. Not just any passport! The smoking gun, one of the hijackers! Boy they sure got lucky there didn't they?

    And as far as backing up my bullshit opinions? Well let's see. . Since my opinion is that I don't believe the official story. I'll back it up again. . . I do not believe the official story. Just to be sure you understand that I'm not back pedaling.

    Again, I never said I had the answers. All I said was I don't believe the official story. I have questions, not answers. And quite frankly neither do you. How many years did it take NIST to come out with their bullshit explanation? How many scientists was on that team? And yet you, mr stacks of engineering books, a college degree and a construction job, knows EVERYTHING!

    To go back to your old quote.. I don't feel like going back to look it up and quote it.. but something along the lines of you wouldn't pretend to know more than an animal biologist because you read some books about zoos. Right. I partially agree with that, and if you work with structural engineering, I'll admit, you are more informed than me. I do have a college degree, but I'll admit it's not in engineering. However, with that being said, if an animal biologist told me that some lions grow to be 400 years old and can fly, you bet your ass I'll question that and call bullshit. I'm not going to take his word for it because he has a degree in zoology. So when I see these videos of the towers collapsing, I'm calling bullshit.

    And just to clarify one last time, because this seems to be the only thing you keep firing back with.

    • Yes, you appear to be more educated than me when it comes to structural engineering.

    But that has fuck all to do with the fact that 3 buildings collapsed at damn near free fall speeds from fires.

    That 19 hijackers who failed their flight schools, were able to maneuver airplanes in ways that professional pilots have tried in flight simulators and failed at.

    That NYPD and NYFD heard Bombs going off in the buildings.

    That a witness claims a bomb went off in the basement BEFORE the first plane hit.

    That there's footage of the WTC lobby after a bomb went off, not from the plane hitting 96 stories above.

    That planes cannot fly at 450 mph that low to the ground.

    That an aluminum airplane that gets fucked up from an encounter with a bird could make a cartoon cutout in the World Trade Center that is made of steel and concrete. Which by the way was NIST's explanation of why the pentagon hole was only 16' wide - because, you know, an airplane can't make a cartoon cutout of steel and concrete.

    I could go on and on buddy.
     
    #411
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  12. JosephDredd Silver Belt

    JosephDredd
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    I was going to argue with you re: findings, but you're right. I wasn't looking at it as a reason to disbelieve the findings, but that is not unreasonable.

    Re: Israelis - maybe I misread the article, but i didn't think they were at ground zero, just close enough to document it. And i think every intelligence agent in the city was doing that.
     
    #412
  13. NakedRare White Belt

    NakedRare
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    I said nothing of the sort. In post #393 I stated...

    Just to be really clear here. You can watch any controlled demolition and see how the collapse starts with a hesitation, then falls at free fall acceleration (9.8 m/s/s which is the acceleration of gravity) after about a second, and then slows near the end of the collapse where the rubble has been piling up.

    The NIST themselves ADMITTED a few years ago that the middle of that collapse was in fact occurring at free fall acceleration. They never elaborated or even pointed out what that meant, but for anyone with even a reasonable mind, it is clear that the roof of a building that is crashing through steel and cement floors will never... and I mean ever... fall at that rate of speed, let alone anywhere even near a speed that a roof falling from the sole influence of gravity would fall at.
     
    #413
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  14. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
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    Yes, police plant evidence. That is wildly different than what you're insinuating.

    So are you saying the planes never hit the towers now? Or that they were empty planes? Or that they were waiting on the ground next to the twin towers waiting to drop a passport after watching planes slam into the buildings? It's not even a smoking gun. What does a passport prove? We have them on camera getting onto the planes. They bought tickets and boarded the planes.

    So you need to explain the purpose of planting a fake passport if you accept that his plane flew into the building. Otherwise, what hit the towers?

    Are you saying that every single thing in the plane was incinerated? If not, is it not possible for a passport to be ejected from the building during the impact? If that happened, what direction would the passport fall? Down right? Is that really magical? 17 of their passports didn't survive. Two did. It's not even a smoking gun. If they were going to invent a smoking gun, don't you think they'd do something more damning than a passport when we already know he was on the plane?

    Are you saying that without the two passports, we wouldn't have been able to identify the hijackers? Again, all a passport does is show that they were on the plane, yet we have proof of that regardless. I don't see what finding the passport changes.

    At least you know your opinions are bullshit. And yes, you've clearly backpedalled on your position. That's why you won't show me the math that led you to conclude that the rate of descent was impossible.

    You seem to have a lot of answers when it comes to disbelieving the facts and findings of the attacks and calling them frauds. You're not asking questions, your calling facts of the case lies.

    I know everything now? No. I just know more than you. And I know the bullshit conspiracy theories you're slinging and why they are bullshit.

    Except nothing in the NIST report is even remotely as wild as claiming lions can fly. With the freefall bullshit you can't even tell me how long it should take to faIl under those conditions, and you don't know what it should look like.

    You thinking you know enough to call bullshit is laughable. Literally the entire world saw those videos and 99.99% of professionals in the industry saw them and didn't call bullshit. But without evidence and data, you think you know more than us. It's fucking absurd.

    And it isn't just his word in your lion scenario. It would be his word along with every major university and professional organization on an international level.

    I do know more than you and it has everything to do with the speed of the collapse. Everyone who understands how the building was designed and how structural engineering works knows that the speed is perfectly reasonable.

    Why would they be going to flight schools if they weren't the hijackers? And those quotes about how bad they were are all rooted in comments from the first schools they went to. That went to several schools and failed some of the first ones. Then later they went to other schools and passed. And none of the maneuvers on 9/11 were particularly hard to perform.

    But do you seriously not get how silly that is? Oh the hijackers couldn't have done it because they went to flight school and some instructors said they weren't good pilots! Why were they in flight school then? Uhhhh.....

    Yes, things exploded in the buildings. None of them were bombs though.

    <LikeReally5>

    Oh buddy.... You know so fucking little about the WTC towers that you think the exterior facade is made of steel and concrete? Holy fuck dude. You seriously don't know anything about the buildings. It was mostly glass. Do you not think a fully loaded plane flying into the side of a glass building can make that impact?

    Are you now trying to claim there were no planes that day?

    It is a long train ride to Crazytown. I know you're not hopping off anytime soon.

    And it's hard to have a real debate with someone who can't back up anything they say. As soon as you get cornered into having to provide some proof of your allegations you just moved onto the next subject. Constantly moving the goal posts is a common tactic with conspiracy theorists. It's a byproduct of having flimsy bullshit theories.
     
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  15. Armbars Red Belt

    Armbars
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    Not this shit again!
     
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  16. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
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    You don't understand how the structure held itself up. And yes, NIST and countless other engineering professionals have elaborated on the rate of descent. It's literally in their own FAQ actually.

    And again, you're incapable of telling me how fast the rate should be, so how are you an authority on how fast it can't be? You simply don't know. And you can't go to the math and point out a section in the NIST report that's incorrect. It's called arguing from ignorance. That's what you're doing.


    WTC 7 freefall FAQ from NIST.

    In a video, it appears that WTC 7 is descending in free fall, something that would not occur in the structural collapse that you describe. How can you ignore basic laws of physics?
    In the draft WTC 7 report (released Aug. 21, 2008; available at http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf), NIST stated that the north face of the building descended 18 stories (the portion of the collapse visible in the video) in 5.4 seconds, based on video analysis of the building collapse. This time period is 40 percent longer than the 3.9 seconds this process would have taken if the north face of the building had descended solely under free fall conditions. During the public comment period on the draft report, NIST was asked to confirm this time difference and define the reasons for it in greater detail.

    To further clarify the descent of the north face, NIST recorded the downward displacement of a point near the center of the roofline from first movement until the north face was no longer visible in the video. Numerical analyses were conducted to calculate the velocity and acceleration of the roofline point from the time-dependent displacement data. The instant at which vertical motion of the roofline first occurred was determined by tracking the numerical value of the brightness of a pixel (a single element in the video image) at the roofline. This pixel became brighter as the roofline began to descend because the color of the pixel started to change from that of the building façade to the lighter color of the sky.

    The approach taken by NIST is summarized in Section 3.6 of the final summary report, NCSTAR 1A (released Nov. 20, 2008; available at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR 1A.pdf) and detailed in Section 12.5.3 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9 (available at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR 1-9 Vol 2.pdf).

    The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:

    • Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
    • Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
    • Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity

    This analysis showed that the 40 percent longer descent time—compared to the 3.9 second free fall time—was due primarily to Stage 1, which corresponded to the buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above. In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below.

    WTC Towers freefall FAQ NIST

    11. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

    NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NIST NCSTAR 1-5A).

    As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

    "The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

    Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass."

    In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

    From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.




    And of course they have math and modeling to support this. No major professional organization or university has ever refuted this.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  17. MicroBrew Gold Belt

    MicroBrew
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    For engineering related issues, the research done by Western academia shouldn't be an issue.
     
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  18. mcveteran81 Veteran

    mcveteran81
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    People don't like thier selfish, simple-minded, t.v watching, consumer conscience life messed with.

    Can't say I really blame them. No one wants to think thier own government as being capable of killing citizens they are sworn to protect.....because it opens the doors to a very problematic series of uncomfortable questions that leave you feeling powerless and incapable. Which the above described prideful people don't ever want to admit;

    They're wrong, weak, not in control, powerless, and need help. I think Frank Sinatra said it best, "I did it my way." Is how I look at people like this.

    There's going to be allot of weeping and gnashing of teeth here pretty soon.
     
    #418
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  19. NakedRare White Belt

    NakedRare
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    Actually, the heavily pro-Israel, FOX news did a four part report on Israeli involvement. They stated in no uncertain terms that any information regarding Israeli involvement was classified. Anyone waiting for "our" government to fill us in there should not be holding their breath.

    [​IMG]
     
    #419
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  20. EnterTheNinja Orange Belt

    EnterTheNinja
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    Oh ffs man. . You talk about me moving the goal posts? Lol. And you try to tell @NakedRare that he doesn't understand how the structure held up. Yet you just tried to tell me the World Trade Center was made of glass. Jesus Christ man. .

    And I've seen you ask me numerous times "oh you think there was no planes now". Quit putting words into my mouth to try to fit your narrative.

    I myself have seen just about every single 911 documentary there is. Anything from a 3 minute clip to some that are 4 hours long. I have read many books about the "truth movement" and I have read quite a few books trying to debunk the truth movement. Because I wanted to decide for myself. After hearing all the points from the truthers sides and all the points from "the official story" or the commission report, I made up my mind. I wanted to make up my own mind, that is why I watched/read arguments from both sides. And I didn't try to debunk either one while reading or watching. I wanted to learn and be able to make up my own mind. Let me ask you something. . Have you done that? Or did you just make up your mind and roll with it?
     
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