Unarmed techniques against knife attackers are stupid | Page 2

Discussion in 'Weapons and Tactics' started by TheAxVictim, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. TheAxVictim White Belt

    TheAxVictim
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    I know what you mean. I've seen some modern knife systems that just reek of Bullshido. They do dozens of flashy cuts while the guy pretending to be the attacker freezes like a mime.

    Any instructor that's teaching his students to slash to the body is an idiot. Slashing is best used to target the arteries and veins, specially the one in the neck. Slashing the body doesn't make any sense.
     
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  2. shincheckin Blue Belt

    shincheckin
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    same thing goes for the nonsense of the people trying to say unarmed vs gun or knife vs gun.

    empty hand vs knife = knife wins knife vs gun = gun wins.


    When I was younger I had a guy swing a knife at me, he could have stabbed me if he really wanted to, but he was using it more to scare than anything. I jumped back and out of the way...but I was lucky and like I said, if he really wanted to get me, he would/could have.

    in a "knife fight" the goal should be to escape. So I would try and escape, keep my distance, use a long range weapon, or maybe try and talk your way out of it/de-escalate the situation, or use your words to buy you some time to find an escape route. Mace would also be useful in a situation like that.

    If you think of ourselves (humans) as animals rather than people, than most would understand that all the BS martial arts armed and unarmed are nonsense. When 2 animals fight, lets take dogs for example, they dont do any nonsense magical moves, there are only so many moves/attacks the the body of the animal is capable of doing. This rule applies to all animals. roosters/cocks, dogs, humans, etc etc.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  3. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

    Chesten_Hesten
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    They need to do that with fencing masks. Fitch should've been stabbed like 20 times in the face within the first 10 secs of that.
     
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  4. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

    Chesten_Hesten
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    I'll buy that.

    I also found that Most, (almost all) the practice was with the attacker carrying through with each and every attack, (all textbook like). Even at the advanced levels.

    People who like knives don't fight like that. They want you to chase that knife. They want to counter your reaction. (unless they don't even have too)

    Some of those techniques against a moron or fine, but I think you're talking about the "dangerous knife people" and its a very difficult proposition with them...
     
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  5. n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

    n.diazismylife1999
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    Yeah, that's what I meant by hysterical, BS videos.

    The first video is someone selling their own system, and when they're demonstrating THEIR techniques, suddenly everything changes.

    The second video might as well be showing wounds of someone that's been headstomped, or kneed in the head, or slammed to the ground head first, etc., etc. "Look at these wounds! There's NO WAY you could fight against this sort of DAMAGE with any kind of fighting arts! Only solution is a gun!"

    And same for the third video. You think you can't make a four minute clip of people getting absolutely fucked up, or even dying, by a dude with no knife?

    The people who demonstrate "THIS IS WHAT REAL KNIFE ATTACKS LOOK LIKE" and then show clips of real knife attack.... end up showing clips of attacks that look nothing like what they're demonstrating, because, fact, most knife attacks don't look like that.

    You can tell it's hysteria and propaganda by the fact that they handle it so unevenly. If you're going to show knife attacks where the defender gets nothing done, why aren't you showing knife attacks where the defender is successful? Simple: you have an agenda, and the latter contradicts it.





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LpebbNqiFo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTsM_YUOrQ

    The only bullshit is the narrative that knives can't be defended against. There's countless proof it's not true.

    Are knives dangerous? Absolutely. Are unarmed techniques against knives "bullshit"? Demonstrably not.

    If I put together a Worldstar video where a red shirted man always wins, will you be convinced it's impossible to fight against people with red shirts? If not, then you should consider how much value you put on the knife hysteria videos.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  6. MaxMMA Blue Belt

    MaxMMA
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    Haha, after watching those knife videos, I stand by my original thought about attacking with strikes. In all those videos the assailants face is wide open and the victims seem fixated on the blade, even the ones where they've already been stuck multiple times. Putting a few elbows against their skull would probably change the tempo of the fight.
     
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  7. DoctorTaco Breadhead

    DoctorTaco
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    disagree. As a professional fighter fitches head movement, range control and level changing was keeping him safe from face strikes
     
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  8. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

    Chesten_Hesten
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    Hard to say, you'll never know when you don't use the proper gear to train full out like you need to.

    Blade work needs to be full speed, otherwise you'll never learn how to deal with it:

    Like so, (wait for the slow motion - light on helmet indicates winner of point)


    Or this:


    Obviously Fitch had better timing than the other guy who didn't really seem to know what to do.

    Simple wrestling techniques against someone if they know what they're doing will get you stabbed unless the person is clueless.

    Its like these people against a real saber fencer. she's going straight through to the face.



    They don't have a clue what's coming or at what level its coming.

    You put that girl in front of Fitch with rubber knives and masks and she'll do the same thing to him, over and over and over.

    You gotta wear a mask to practice this stuff.

    Maybe they did later on with Fitch. (They need to)
     
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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  9. DoctorTaco Breadhead

    DoctorTaco
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    i can say with 100% confidence that an untrained opponent isn't touching a professional fighter in the face with a knife.

    I'm trying to imagine a scenario where someone is trained in combat knife fighting AND is also out attacking people with their skills. The odds of that happening are astronomical and not worth wasting time preparing for.
     
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  10. n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

    n.diazismylife1999
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    This is the thing -- if you've trained combat sports for a long time, you've seen hundreds of untrained people step into the gym.

    And they're fucking clueless about fighting. About every aspect. From footwork to just basic body movement. I'd feel very confident in winning against 99% of them even if they had a knife.
     
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  11. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

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    Maybe. I have a friend who's buddies with John Perretti, (the used to be matchmaker for the UFC) John was a good stand up fighter:

    Here's a couple podcasts with him:
    http://www.grapplearts.com/john-perretti-mma-matchmaker/

    Recently About Mayweather Mcgregor
    https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/nhbnews/episodes/2017-06-30T00_36_56-07_00

    John was a big proponent of Kali and various other things he'd learned. Then he started knife sparring with better grade fencers, and realized that he knew wasn't cutting it because how he practiced. So he changed, used equipment conducive to the task.
    I took a seminar with him then took a few years of fencing to work the techniques, Unbeknownst to the fencers, who were merely in it for sport.

    There was a place in town that did Kali, JKD, Brazilian JJ Boxing Thai Boxing. Mousel's Selfdefense, in Houston. They were good fighters, Couple people from their gym fought in some of the UFC undercards.

    I went there and straight up told them I wanted to knife spare with then to see what they had and what I could learn from them, you know a challenge. I didn't know shit about boxing, kicking, wrestling or any thing they were good at. But against the owner and the top Kali instructor I was able to land 95% hits on their face, head, ear, hand, arm, armpit, Lungs, neck, Back of the neck, Stomach, Hamstring, You name it. Everything they knew went out the window, cause all they thought about was my rubber knife which I held right out in front of them.

    And they told me going in, I was in for the way I held the thing.

    These guys never sparred with masks, I brought fencing masks and when it became open season on face and head, they weren't prepared to deal with it, and got worked. And they were much better fighters than me.

    Now by and large all this shit we do as Americans, the shooting guns, the martial Arts all of it is for leisure, for fun. We don't live in a war torn society where our lives depend on this stuff.

    Chances are low, Unless you go looking for trouble you won't ever use any of it to save your neck. You're doing it for the fun, or for sport in competition, as a game. But:
    My point is, if you going to the spend time on it, shouldn't you want to spend it the most effective way you can? Why do it shitty? Hell Boxers use headgear.


    Back to hypothetical:
    I like what Bill Wallace says here, you want to try and see, (real fast like) if they knife guy know what he's doing, and act accordingly - Run something....
     
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  12. shincheckin Blue Belt

    shincheckin
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    its not impossible to defend against a knife attack. I never said that. What I said is most the stuff taught with all these cool flashy moves are bullshit. your not gonna slippidy slap your way out of getting stabbed.

    The bus video shows a larger stronger man holding the knife hand, and baically overpowering the smaller guy. There wasnt any whimsical swirling of the hands moves. All he did was grab the knife hand and over power the other man. Grabbing the knife hand is pretty much instinctual, no fancy training needed for that.


    a knife attack by a aggressive determined person, specifically someone that does not train in knife fighting martial arts, is much more likely to be like this


    than this
    https://youtu.be/DJGyxBgf0Is?t=1m4s

    please show me a video of a successful defense of a knife attack using some bullshit like this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU9xof8heYA

    the videos you posted further proved my point, the bus video was a simple hand grab and over powering.

    The other video was a smaller man getting basically tripped more or less by a cop, the guy was wearing a backpack easy to off balance etc. Lets also take into consideration that he was not intent on stabbing the cop, and was using the knife to try and keep the cop from capturing him. He was not attacking, he was using it to hold the cop off.

    if you watch actual stabbings, you will see the majority of them are like the first video i posted.

    if someone has a knife, and is intent on stabbing you, your pretty much fucked, unless you escape. Is it impossible to defend it? No, is it likely...no.

    I proved my agenda, please prove yours by showing me some flashy real knife defense.

    If you think your going to karate chop your way out of a knife fight...go for it.

    and the 3rd video I posted, that shows actual stabbings, the first 2 are almost identical to the first video i posted of "what a stabbing would look like". the guy with the knife didnt swirl it around like the karate kid.
     
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  13. n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

    n.diazismylife1999
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    I wasn't aware my agenda was that "flashy knife defense works." The topic is that all unarmed techniques against knives are bullshit. Do I agree that a good portion of marketed techniques are bullshit? Yes. At least to the extent that they won't work unless you're much physically superior to the attacker.

    Karate chops, though, aren't flashy, and are, in fact, great strikes without gloves. A karate chop to the neck or throat, or even the wrist if you know how to break bones, is a viable and good technique.

    Why is it that most knife attacks don't end up in deaths? Because it's not true that "you're fucked if someone has a knife and wants to attack you."

    Is it likely to defend against a knife attack unarmed? Depends entirely on who the defender is and who the attacker is. Like Taco mentioned earlier, an actual competent knife-wielder attacking someone is extremely rare.
     
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  14. shincheckin Blue Belt

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    so were on the same page then that most the stuff is bullshit, but not all.

    and yeah a competent knife weilder is extremely rare, which is why the majority of the time a "knife attack is likely to look like this" is spot on.

    The only place you see knife fighting like this is in the movies, both attacks and defense.
     
    #34
  15. DoctorTaco Breadhead

    DoctorTaco
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    if you're knife fighting for fun then by all means, wear a mask and have fun. Most people train knife t techniques for self defense. If you're being attacked by someone with a knife the long odds are they aren't trained martial artists. That's all I'm saying.
     
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  16. n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

    n.diazismylife1999
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    And especially not elite level fencers...
     
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  17. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

    Chesten_Hesten
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    True enough, but if you're training for self defense without using equipment to do it properly, you might as well be playing touch-butt in the park, and when and if you get attacked, you won't be able to choose your opponent, so you'd better be prepared for everything you can. That's all I'm saying.
     
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  18. DoctorTaco Breadhead

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    the video didn't seem like touch butt. It proves my point.
     
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  19. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

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    Here's something I think is constructive without creating further argument.

    From a self-defense standpoint I think its gravely important for the school, when demoing a technique to: (block, trap, disarm or evade a knife attack) To then show the Knife guy's technique to counter that!

    Just the same as you wouldn't want to goto a Boxing coach who stopped at the Jab, you can't just assume the knife guy will be a dunce and succumb to the first or second technique you just saw in the school. Knife guys practice too.

    Effectively all these techniques and practice are to give you more and better looks at all given situations with the hope of increasing your probability of coming out the better. There's always the flipside, a counter to the counter to the punch to the roll and so on and so forth, because in the end you learn the rules to see that there are none.


    And then you have the caught off guard situations which is what usually gets you:


    Lucky that asshole stopped at one stab.

    Is it any wonder some Cops are trigger happy assholes when dealing with people?
     
    #39
  20. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

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    Which video?

    Edit: You mean this Fitch Vid? This one?



    As an example Its bad, and let me explain why I think so.

    Fitch is leaning for a shoot, leading with his face.

    Guy with knife:
    Feint to body/hand, hook to the head. (stab) Slash to eyes.

    Let him duck and shoot for the hand, move it and stab him in the back, cut his throat.

    End it before wrestling starts.

    When the wrestling did start, he's got Fitch in A guillotine.

    No Knee to the Head, no punch to the face to make him turn loose the knife?

    This is for War?

    Fitch:
    Feint shoot, jab to the eyes, punch to the face. Then grab knife, and shove it up his ass.


    This is the ARMY's Self Defense for a knife class!!!!

    The Army, that means this is for War Fighting, this is for killing not fucking around.

    And there's two facets here:

    #1 What to do when your unarmed and the other guy's going to kill you with a knife.

    #2 If you're down to just your knife how do you kill this fucker quick.

    The instructor needs to be coaching both ends and explaining this stuff, Even at level 1.

    Maybe they do all this later, (I sure hope so)

    But just what we're seeing here, this is not good. Why wait to reveal the stakes here, to introduce feints and strikes?

    What's a good way to beat a submission or hold on the ground? Punches, eye gouges, biting.

    All's fair in War.

    You gotta have face protection so you can play this game correctly.

    You gotta be open to understanding the game you're playing here.

    You can't choose your opponent, and you can't assume he's a dunski.

    That's like assuming you'll be ok in a gunfight cause the other guy's prolly going to miss anyway.

    You need to look at as the knife guy too, how do you beat the schmuck trying to take your knife and kill you with it?

    And if someone comes up with a more effective way, (some things fencers do) You wanna know that too.

    Not trying to be an asshole here, I think maybe you just didn't look closely enough at the vid.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017

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