UFC 211 early numbers ...

Hey man,
Never
UFC needs Free TV to make new fans to drive them to become paying customers.
Plus $30.00 a month seems like a bargain to hardcore, but a newer fan would really need to think about making that jump

Also some fast math (so it is approx)
If you go by 2015, UFC would need to do 120m monthly purchases or an average of 10m a month to make the difference up
WWE does 1.5m

Now there would be re-structuring, but even cut that to 2.5m & you see how that is very tough
Then they better get a lucrative network deal then
 
Then they better get a lucrative network deal then

Just for the same deal they have now with Fox, industry experts say $250m per seems fair.
WME has said $450m per is what they think, but they are willing to restructure the deal.
 
Outside of Mcgregor/Ronda/UFC 200, I would say those numbers aren't bad at all, maybe even better than the average ppv card recently,

250-350K is the baseline for a UFC card that doesn't feature a megastar like Ronda or Conor. WME needs to construct a business model around that..
 
WME model has nothing to do with the current PPV buys. 250k buys is/was the average for any card that doesn't include Bones, Ronda, Conor, GSP, Brock. The reason those do higher is because those fighters do bring in the casuals. So I don't understand what you're saying.

WME didn't spend four billion dollars to buy the UFC just to do "average" on cards.

Besides, Bones, Ronda, Conor, GSP, Brock, etc. were consistently, if sporadically, found on the PPV cards *before* WME purchased the UFC, so why would you think they would be satisfied to do "average" without those PPV-pumping names on the cards? Because without them , they are actually doing well below average on PPVs.

WME's purchase was reported last July.

The average PPV in 2014 was 267,000.

The average PPV in 2015 was 496,000.

The average PPV in 2016 was 690,000.

That's incredible growth. WME expected that to continue. They certainly didn't expect it to decline this year. They certainly didn't expect all their big stars to either be absent or retired in 2017, and no one to be taking their places and for PPVs to be trending back toward 2014 with a vengeance.
 
Why are you blaming the casuals? Most sherdoggers, who claim to be hardcore fans, openly brag about stealing the PPV.

You can't understand why this is?

A lot of hardcores watch every event...paying for every PPV adds up. $60 for a casual buying a card once a year isn't shit.

You drop some cash once a year on some blow to celebrate and it's no big deal. When you have to pay to cover your daily habit, it becomes something else.
 
WME didn't spend four billion dollars to buy the UFC just to do "average" on cards.

Besides, Bones, Ronda, Conor, GSP, Brock, etc. were consistently, if sporadically, found on the PPV cards *before* WME purchased the UFC, so why would you think they would be satisfied to do "average" without those PPV-pumping names on the cards? Because without them , they are actually doing well below average on PPVs.

WME's purchase was reported last July.

The average PPV in 2014 was 267,000.

The average PPV in 2015 was 496,000.

The average PPV in 2016 was 690,000.

That's incredible growth. WME expected that to continue. They certainly didn't expect it to decline this year. They certainly didn't expect all their big stars to either be absent or retired in 2017, and no one to be taking their places and for PPVs to be trending back toward 2014 with a vengeance.

I think most people know WME got hosed. The Fertitta's were brilliant. The UFC ad PPV's were hot because of two people. Ronda was owned and retired. Which I'm sure Zuffa saw coming and Conor keeps holding out for more money and took time off. I'm pretty sure most UFC that had clue along with Zuffa didn't see those numbers as tremendous company growth otherwise they might not of sold. WME probably saw that as incredible growth but it was actually more of an anomaly from having two fighters catch massive fire with the mainstream.

I never said they were satisfied but you acted like it's a new thing for WME to rely on casuals. Zuffa wanted the same thing. No one is touting those numbers as amazing or saying things are going like WME expected.
 
There are a lot of hardcores that won't pay $8/mo for Fight Pass. So it's not surprising that any PPV without Conor/Ronda/etc does not do well.

Pretty good prelim numbers for not being on the usual FS1.
 
WME didn't spend four billion dollars to buy the UFC just to do "average" on cards.

Besides, Bones, Ronda, Conor, GSP, Brock, etc. were consistently, if sporadically, found on the PPV cards *before* WME purchased the UFC, so why would you think they would be satisfied to do "average" without those PPV-pumping names on the cards? Because without them , they are actually doing well below average on PPVs.

WME's purchase was reported last July.

The average PPV in 2014 was 267,000.

The average PPV in 2015 was 496,000.

The average PPV in 2016 was 690,000.

That's incredible growth. WME expected that to continue. They certainly didn't expect it to decline this year. They certainly didn't expect all their big stars to either be absent or retired in 2017, and no one to be taking their places and for PPVs to be trending back toward 2014 with a vengeance.

What WME didn't get was that 2014 was more the norm than 2016. In fact take away Ronda, Conor, and Brock cards from 2016 and you get right around the 2014 average. W/O Conor and Ronda this is a zombie..
 
I believe this is why WWE went and did their own network. I hope UFC will do the same. There is way too many PPV for the average fan with average income to buy.

It's exactly the reason why.

I use to get into pro wrestling a lot more back in the day and would follow the numbers and it became very apparent the PPV era for pro wrestling was on life support. You just can't go to the well month after month, year after year with your audience unless your turning your audience over at very high rate. Fans get sick of paying for it. Hardcores go through a cycle of ordering it all or most and two year later they cherry pick the events and eventually it gets down to one or two PPV's a year at best. Truth is, pro wrestling fan base is also older than the UFC's fanbase which usually mean more extra income and it ran its course over a few decades with them. Main reason it lasted that long was for a good part of it there was no internet. UFC's fan base is much younger, much more tech savy, and are at the fore front of the cable cutting era.

Future of the UFC is one of two avenues or hybrid of combining both.

1) They sign large TV media deal this next time. Give the network a good 8 solid cards a year that would be normal PPV events. Then give them the other 7 to 10 or whatever traditional FS1 quality cards. Then 4 times a year do a PPV and stack the hell out of it so they can push the PPV buys to a good 1.5 million avg. for each one. Then they can pull around 6 million PPV's a year and get the mega TV deal. They'd get it all and the fans for the most part win.

2.) They continue to push Fightpass and eventually run there PPV's through it for a low monthly fee. While still having there TV media deals.


Either way we win and I truly think in 5 years we'll see this change.
 
Maybe the UFC should think about adopting a new profit model for events. PPV seems to be dwindling
 
I think most people know WME got hosed. The Fertitta's were brilliant. The UFC ad PPV's were hot because of two people. Ronda was owned and retired. Which I'm sure Zuffa saw coming and Conor keeps holding out for more money and took time off. I'm pretty sure most UFC that had clue along with Zuffa didn't see those numbers as tremendous company growth otherwise they might not of sold. WME probably saw that as incredible growth but it was actually more of an anomaly from having two fighters catch massive fire with the mainstream.

I never said they were satisfied but you acted like it's a new thing for WME to rely on casuals. Zuffa wanted the same thing. No one is touting those numbers as amazing or saying things are going like WME expected.

I think your really under estimating the people involved in this deal. None of them got to this point in their life's because they get "hosed" in deals. Trust me, 4 billion dollar deal didn't get done without a lot of due diligence.

Not to mention it seems like other deals in that neighborhood were on the table. So that would be more uneducated people involved.

What WME or any of the other groups are banking on is TV deals around the world. More countries than ever before have been building up there middle class in there societies. Some countries 20 to 25 years ago barely had TV's and a majority paid zero for the content are now having people paying for TV channels. 20 years ago many countries barely even had there own TV channels. Now most countries have multiple local TV channels. Think of the US between 1960 to 2000's when it comes to television. Many countries are going through this growing phase in years instead of decades. More money than ever is out there for media content around the world and that is what WME is banking on. Deals signed in 2012 that might have been worth 1 million a year in some country might be worth 8-10 million in 2019.
 
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Maybe the UFC should think about adopting a new profit model for events. PPV seems to be dwindling


They will in 2019 buddy
That is/was the plan all along.
once they are contractually allowed they will make major changes in distribution.
 
I think your really under estimating the people involved in this deal. None of them got to this point in their life's because they get "hosed" in deals. Trust me, 4 billion dollar deal didn't get done without a lot of due diligence.

Not to mention it seems like other deals in that neighborhood were on the table. So that is would be more uneducated people involved.

What WME or any of the other groups are banking on is TV deals around the world. More countries than ever before have building up there middle class in there societies. Countries that 20 years ago barely had TV's and a majority paid zero for the content are now having people paying for TV channels. 20 years ago many countries barely even had there own TV channels. Now most countries have multiple local TV channels. Think of the US between 1960 to 2000's when it comes to television. Many countries are going through this growing phase in years instead of decades. More money than ever is out there for media content around the world and that is what WME is banking on. Deals signed in 2012 that might have been worth 1 million a year in some country might be worth 8-10 million in 2019.

This
@orangecuse is a good poster & maybe he just used the wrong word.
But when 5 groups of billionaires all bid over $3.5b (including Fox) after going over the legal filings/numbers, there is no "hosing".
Lorenzo did not put fake numbers on a cocktail napkin.
WME has a plan & in 2.5 years we will have an idea if it worked out & what adjustments they will make (or not)
As stated in other threads, Fox may very well partner with WME & the debt is paid off.
There are so many ways this can go.
Could it be a bad deal? Of course ... any deal could, but none of this is impending doom.
 
This
@orangecuse is a good poster & maybe he just used the wrong word.
But when 5 groups of billionaires all bid over $3.5b (including Fox) after going over the legal filings/numbers, there is no "hosing".
Lorenzo did not put fake numbers on a cocktail napkin.
WME has a plan & in 2.5 years we will have an idea if it worked out & what adjustments they will make (or not)
As stated in other threads, Fox may very well partner with WME & the debt is paid off.
There are so many ways this can go.
Could it be a bad deal? Of course ... any deal could, but none of this is impending doom.
People put to much stock in ppv buys. Yes 211 and ppvs in general have mediocre numbers without a star on them (a large part of that due to streaming, people watching at bars, ppv prices going from $45 to $60, etc.), but ppv is not what is gonna make or break the UFC. As me and you discussed multiple times its the tv deals. I'm astonished that people on here don't understand that and just keep saying "WME made a horrible deal". I'm pretty sure the several billionaires that bid for the UFC knew what the hell they were doing lol, they saw the potential massive tv deals and potential growth of the UFC.
 
People put to much stock in ppv buys. Yes 211 and ppvs in general have mediocre numbers without a star on them (a large part of that due to streaming, people watching at bars, ppv prices going from $45 to $60, etc.), but ppv is not what is gonna make or break the UFC. As me and you discussed multiple times its the tv deals. I'm astonished that people on here don't understand that and just keep saying "WME made a horrible deal". I'm pretty sure the several billionaires that bid for the UFC knew what the hell they were doing lol, they saw the potential massive tv deals and potential growth of the UFC.

Exactly, like 200,000 buys based on expenses seems to guarantee a profit on the card. Not the profit they want but still a profit. They're not losing any money on these events. That's the most important thing.
 
People put to much stock in ppv buys. Yes 211 and ppvs in general have mediocre numbers without a star on them (a large part of that due to streaming, people watching at bars, ppv prices going from $45 to $60, etc.), but ppv is not what is gonna make or break the UFC. As me and you discussed multiple times its the tv deals. I'm astonished that people on here don't understand that and just keep saying "WME made a horrible deal". I'm pretty sure the several billionaires that bid for the UFC knew what the hell they were doing lol, they saw the potential massive tv deals and potential growth of the UFC.

You know SD & you can tell by this thread ... some have an agenda & gnaw on a bone about it & will NEVER listen to more knowledgeable people and/or common sense.

UFC never lived/died per month or quarter. Even their "bad" year of 2014 was fine.
Comparing it to other businesses that do not have the variable that UFC does shows no sense of the situation.
Right now UFC is contingent on a Conor type, WME's idea is to move away from relying on that & having that as a bonus.
MLB & other sports have up & downs & there is a lot more regularity in those sports than MMA.
 
Exactly, like 200,000 buys based on expenses seems to guarantee a profit on the card. Not the profit they want but still a profit. They're not losing any money on these events. That's the most important thing.
Not to mention the money WME gets from tv deals all around, fight pass, merchandise, ticket sales, etc. yet every time theres a bad card in terms of views, or mediocre ppv buys we hear "ufc is dying", "wme are cucks", etc.
 
Here is the bottom line
WME & Fox have both been involved in UFC for 5+ years prior to the sale. Fox as a broadcast partner knows what UFC is or is not worth more than anybody but the owners.
WME brokered the Fox deal & are DW's agents, plus they are known for their deal making ability.
Some of the richest Chinese billionaires that are known for being brilliant businessmen all bid in that neighborhood as well.

Most people commenting have no clue how the sale went.
UFC did not set a price. They received closed bids.
So billionaires that bid decided UFC worth - not Lorenzo ;)
I think DW is lying through his ass that one was for $5b, but I would not be shocked if there was one for over $3.95b that WME bid.

2019 & beyond will be the make/break period for UFC, not a few PPV cards in 2017
 
Only Jones-DC can break 500k this year. If Conor, Ronda, GSP and Brock don't return and Jones fucks up again, which is all very likely, there might be entire year without 400k+ ppvs
 
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