Uber, Lyft Drivers Earning A Median Profit Of $3.37 Per Hour

[tdluxon]

People don't quit there jobs for Uber.

It's usually supplemental income or a type of employment for people that are in school, transitioning to a new city etc...
the pros to it are it's easy to sign up for and you work the hours you want so you can make the schedule work for you.

I doubt there are many (if any) people that see it as long term solution

I know a couple of people who quit other jobs to drive Uber, according to them they were making more $

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I know a couple of people who quit other jobs to drive Uber, according to them they were making more $

Where was this?

 

[High Altitude]

So how do you know that big repair is because you were driving for them or would have happened anyway.

Doesn't matter, you would just allocate it out by mile.

 

[tdluxon]

Where was this?

CA Bay Area. I don't know what they were actually making but they did quit their jobs and say they were making more, two unrelated people.

The big point of the study though is that people are making a lot less than they perceive because they aren't factoring in depreciation in value of the car

 

[High Altitude]

Even when people aren't making hardly any money with Uber, no matter how much you try to show it, they will not believe it because they don't want to believe it. They love driving for uber so much they will just stay in denial until they basically go broke.

They love the flexibility of it, how easy it is etc...... they do not want to have to work a normal job. It is like crack to them.

It also doesn't help that they have cash in hand and believe it is profit when a lot of it is to pay accrued expenses that haven't had to be paid for yet.

 

[High Altitude]

IMO, über has created the greatest scam in a very long time.

Who else gets to have a business with almost no risk because you put it all on your workers while most of them don't even understand what is happening, but since they are addicted to it so much that even when shown what is happening they will be in denial. Then you get to compete in an industry, but don't have to play by all the rules.

Whomever created uber is an absolute genius.

 

[High Altitude]

Uh yea? My first post said I make 21/hr gross and 10/hr net (after taxes and expenses). Theirs said 3.37 net expenses but pretax.

You can easily do the math to see what the MIT think is gross since they provide a revenue/mile, expense/mile and net wage per hour.
Revenue/mile= .59
Expense/mile= .30
Profit/mile= .29
Net Wage(profit)/Hour= 3.37
Miles/Hour= 11.6
11.6 Miles/hr x .59 revenue/mile= 6.84/hr Gross

So the Standford study (who actually has the data) is saying 21/hr gross while the MIT "study" (asking people numbers they aren't tracking well) is saying 6.84/hr gross.

Also keep in mind, I disagree with MIT's expense per mile at .30. I assume the standard mileage rate of .545 which is .245 more than what they have.

So their revenue and expense numbers are pretty bad. Like I mentioned, the only statistic they have pretty accurate but they don't directly say is the miles/hour of 11.6. I just looked at mine and it's 11.68.

Actually, the expense number is pretty accurate for a used economy vehicle. I have ran the numbers several times and 30-35 cents per mile is right there. The .545 is way high for the typical uber X type vehicle. That is more like a brand new vehicle.

Also think of it this way when it comes to revenue, figuring out profit.

From what I have seen, most drivers after the whole day or night will drive one paid mile out of every two miles driven, so one dead mile that still cost them money. You have to pay for that dead mile out of the gross income.

For a quick approximation double your expenses per mile (1 mile for uber, 1 dead mile that you still have to pay for) and subtract that from your pay per paid mile uber gives you and then times it all by miles per hour and it will be a pretty close approximation for dollar per hour that you profit.

What it comes down to is you want to drive the cheapest most economical used car that is also the most reliable in a location that pays the most per mile but is also a place where you will have very few dead miles.

Those are the locations that you will make the most while driving for uber.

 

[Lord Coke]

Uber, Lyft and other gig jobs may face a shakeup under new California work rules


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-independent-contractors-20180502-story.html

The rise of independent contracting has delivered benefits for some, such as greater flexibility for workers and lower costs for employers. But it also ensnared some people in low-wage jobs without benefits, working schedules that can change daily.

Now, following a state Supreme Court ruling Monday, businesses across California could be forced to reclassify swaths of their workforces as employees, with profound effects on workers and companies.



By toughening requirements for when a worker is actually an employee, the California Supreme Court won praise from labor advocates who say the move will put more dollars in the pockets of previously misclassified workers. Independent contractors are not subject to minimum wage, overtime or workers' compensation requirements. The ruling may force companies in certain industries, especially in the app-driven gig economy, to change their business model.

"Almost every industry has dipped their toe in the independent contractor, freelancer model," said Rich Meneghello, a partner with Fisher Phillips, a national law firm that represents employers. "As of today, they are all going to have to apply this new test."



A 2016 national study by economists at Harvard and Princeton universities found that construction had the highest percentage of independent contractors among nonfarm industries, at 16.2%. Service industries were close behind. Technology, Hollywood studios and other "information" companies also ranked high.

An attorney for the U.S. and California chambers of commerce said the organizations declined to comment on the ruling.

Ron Miller, executive secretary of the Los Angeles/Orange Counties Building and Construction Trades Council, said many subcontractors across the building industry don't hire employees for jobs, but rather label workers independent contractors and pay them in cash. That undercuts companies he described as "playing by the rules."

Miller said he expects the ruling to encourage more construction workers to be hired as employees, but he predicted change would be slow.

"The folks that are out there cheating are always going to look for a way to cheat," he said.

Nick Cammarota, general counsel for the California Building Industry Assn., said he doesn't expect the ruling to have much effect on the group's large home builders. He said they hire reputable, experienced companies that use employees. But he noted others could face problems.

Experts said the greatest effect is likely to be on companies that hire contractors to perform work that would be considered a core part of their business. In its ruling, the California Supreme Court simplified a multistep test for qualifying as a contractor, centered on how much control an employer had over a worker. Those complicated rules were open to multiple interpretations.

In its place, the court set up a three-step test, the most important requirement being that a contractor must perform work outside the hiring company's usual course of business.

Meneghello, who co-chairs Fisher Phillips' gig-economy practice, said companies will find it difficult to argue that workers are independent if they have to answer "no" to the question "If you remove the people currently classified as independent contract workers, would that company still exist?"

Economist Chris Thornberg, founding partner of Beacon Economics, said the construction industry has a decent shot at convincing judges that many workers, such as plumbers and roofers, are independent. But gig companies, including Uber and Lyft, would have a harder time.

"You can't parse Uber from driving people from point A to point B," Thornberg said.

Indeed, the ruling was seen as a boon by some drivers, who have long accused the ride-hailing companies of controlling them like they're employees, classifying them as independent contractors, and giving them the benefits of neither.

Edward Escobar, who has driven for Uber and Lyft in San Francisco for more than four years, said he can't set his own rates or decide where he drives to. But he still must buy his own health insurance, maintain his own vehicle and pay for gas.

"You can't get any worse than that," said Escobar, who has advocated for driver benefits under the Alliance for Independent Workers.

Uber and Lyft declined to comment. But those companies and others in the gig economy have long argued that workers have the ability to set their own hours by turning on an app whenever they want to work. Many gig workers, the companies point out, use the jobs to supplement other work and only work part time.

Escobar also enjoys that freedom and said he hopes the ruling will push Uber and Lyft to treat drivers like "true" independent contractors who can set their own rates.

Change may not be immediate, though. Unless a company, on its own, wants to reclassify to avoid potential penalties, it can wait until it is sued by workers or state authorities and then present legal arguments why its independent contractor model is still valid.

For example, Massachusetts and New Jersey both have a standard similar to the one the California Supreme Court adopted, but Uber and Lyft drivers are still independent contractors there.

Two class-action lawsuits, filed in 2013 in California and Massachusetts, threatened to dismantle Uber's business model and put the company on the hook for expenses such as mileage reimbursement, overtime payments, vacation days and other benefits. The cases, which allege workers are employees, remain tied up in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, where lawyers continue to fight over whether Uber's arbitration agreements are enforceable.

Monday's ruling also does not directly cover workers who are employees of staffing agencies and are contracted out to larger companies — an arrangement that is common among tech giants in Silicon Valley and warehouse companies in the Inland Empire.

Michael Rubin, a lawyer who represented labor organizations in the case, said those larger companies won't have to directly hire agency-supplied employees, but it will be easier now for workers to hold that larger company accountable if they aren't paid minimum wage or overtime by the staffing agency.

Michael Warren, a partner with law firm McManis Faulkner in San Jose, called the ruling "a pendulum swing by the court back to the employee classification."

"It's going to have a broad impact, not just on the gig economy, but on everybody," he said.

 

[Lead]

Actually, the expense number is pretty accurate for a used economy vehicle. I have ran the numbers several times and 30-35 cents per mile is right there. The .545 is way high for the typical uber X type vehicle. That is more like a brand new vehicle.

Also think of it this way when it comes to revenue, figuring out profit.

From what I have seen, most drivers after the whole day or night will drive one paid mile out of every two miles driven, so one dead mile that still cost them money. You have to pay for that dead mile out of the gross income.

For a quick approximation double your expenses per mile (1 mile for uber, 1 dead mile that you still have to pay for) and subtract that from your pay per paid mile uber gives you and then times it all by miles per hour and it will be a pretty close approximation for dollar per hour that you profit.

What it comes down to is you want to drive the cheapest most economical used car that is also the most reliable in a location that pays the most per mile but is also a place where you will have very few dead miles.

Those are the locations that you will make the most while driving for uber.

Not sure if you are referencing just this one post but what do you consider a dead mile? The end of one trip to another? If so, I factor that into how much I make, the only thing not factored in for mileage would be the trip to the first spot and the drive home which wouldn't be close to a 1:1 ratio. My point with the .30 compared to .545 is that I myself am using .545 and I know I'm netting 12/hr after that. They are using a lower expense per mile but a very very low revenue per mile number that just doesn't seem believable. But I already went through the study they did here. It was a survey. The other study I found involving the gender pay gap had actual data straight from uber.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

They should not forced to drive for Uber.

Oh wait.

 

[High Altitude]

Not sure if you are referencing just this one post but what do you consider a dead mile? The end of one trip to another? If so, I factor that into how much I make, the only thing not factored in for mileage would be the trip to the first spot and the drive home which wouldn't be close to a 1:1 ratio. My point with the .30 compared to .545 is that I myself am using .545 and I know I'm netting 12/hr after that. They are using a lower expense per mile but a very very low revenue per mile number that just doesn't seem believable. But I already went through the study they did here. It was a survey. The other study I found involving the gender pay gap had actual data straight from uber.

If the trip to first spot isn't a personal drive, I would include it. If you would drive it anyway if you weren't going to drive for uber at all, then don't include it.

From what I have seen, location and the times and days you drive play a huge part. It can mean the difference of making nothing and doing OK.

If you drive for a location that pays on the higher side per mile, and then you only drive the very busy times and get multiple pay, and lets say your location has very few dead miles, you will make way more money compared to most locations.

A few cents here and there, a few miles here and there etc.. will make a huge difference.

 

[Lead]

If the trip to first spot isn't a personal drive, I would include it. If you would drive it anyway if you weren't going to drive for uber at all, then don't include it.

From what I have seen, location and the times and days you drive play a huge part. It can mean the difference of making nothing and doing OK.

If you drive for a location that pays on the higher side per mile, and then you only drive the very busy times and get multiple pay, and lets say your location has very few dead miles, you will make way more money compared to most locations.

A few cents here and there, a few miles here and there etc.. will make a huge difference.

I never count the drive to the first trip and the drive home just because of the tax purpose so it's always personal to me and I'm coming in 12/hr.

I still don't know what we are classifying as a dead mile. Was it the miles to get to the next trip?

Also, I guess people could do a shitty time but even then, what would drop their rate a ton would be them idly waiting for their next trip. That would be very costly if you picked a downtime like that and I'd be surprised if people did that. I've had about one time I had to wait for a new trip and it was ten minutes. I felt like that was forever. If someone does that regularly, its kinda dumb unless they don't mind hanging out in their car.

 

[High Altitude]

I never count the drive to the first trip and the drive home just because of the tax purpose so it's always personal to me and I'm coming in 12/hr.

I still don't know what we are classifying as a dead mile. Was it the miles to get to the next trip?

Also, I guess people could do a shitty time but even then, what would drop their rate a ton would be them idly waiting for their next trip. That would be very costly if you picked a downtime like that and I'd be surprised if people did that. I've had about one time I had to wait for a new trip and it was ten minutes. I felt like that was forever. If someone does that regularly, its kinda dumb unless they don't mind hanging out in their car.

You still have to pay for those miles.

If you leave your house specifically to go drive uber, then all miles driven until you get home are uber miles.

Lets say that is 100 miles.

If you drive 60 paid miles, meaning 60 miles with a customer that uber paid you for, then the other 40 miles are dead miles. Those dead miles cost you money and you wouldn't have drove them if it wasn't for uber. It is an added expense and has to be paid for out of what uber pays you.

 

[Lead]

Also, it's interesting this thread got bumped cause they sent an memo out this week that Pittsburgh's location will be seeing a 20% increase in their fares starting the 21st. I'm interested to see if it really comes out to that. My guess is it will likely be 10-15% since the trip bonuses and such won't apply to the percentage increase.

Either way, I guess there were a decent amount of complaints and now it's going up here. This also does imply that the fares are very much based on city so my numbers must just be Pittsburgh location. When I compared my numbers to the Stafford study though, they were very close to mine.

 

[High Altitude]

Also, it's interesting this thread got bumped cause they sent an memo out this week that Pittsburgh's location will be seeing a 20% increase in their fares starting the 21st. I'm interested to see if it really comes out to that. My guess is it will likely be 10-15% since the trip bonuses and such won't apply to the percentage increase.

Either way, I guess there were a decent amount of complaints and now it's going up here. This also does imply that the fares are very much based on city so my numbers must just be Pittsburgh location. When I compared my numbers to the Stafford study though, they were very close to mine.

.

If they need more drivers, they up the rate. If they have more than enough drivers, they lower the rate. Knowing uber, don't be surprised if they take that money from somewhere else, bonuses etc... This enables uber to advertise a higher rate, attract the drivers needed, but not really incur the total cost of the increase.

 

[Lead]

You still have to pay for those miles.

If you leave your house specifically to go drive uber, then all miles driven until you get home are uber miles.

I understand that but this is where things get a little silly in calculating net expenses here. First off, I could factor it in and it really isn't significant since I usually do a 8-10 shift of driving so the trip miles back aren't much. Secondly, no one calculates their net pay for their normal job based on their commute from home to work and vice verse. That's the entire point of why the IRS doesn't let you deduct it.

Lets say that is 100 miles.

If you drive 60 paid miles, meaning 60 miles with a customer that uber paid you for, then the other 40 miles are dead miles. Those dead miles cost you money and you wouldn't have drove them if it wasn't for uber. It is an added expense and has to be paid for out of what uber pays you.

That's what I thought you meant and I do factor in the dead miles in my calculation and all the numbers I'm saying.

 

[Lead]

.

If they need more drivers, they up the rate. If they have more than enough drivers, they lower the rate. Knowing uber, don't be surprised if they take that money from somewhere else, bonuses etc... This enables uber to advertise a higher rate, attract the drivers needed, but not really incur the total cost of the increase.

They already played with the bonus system a month or so ago but they also made a minimum fare which seemed to balance it out. I really haven't found a variance in my revenue/mile from one month to another so far but it's only been six months.

 

[High Altitude]

.

If they need more drivers, they up the rate. If they have more than enough drivers, they lower the rate.

I understand that but this is where things get a little silly in calculating net expenses here. First off, I could factor it in and it really isn't significant since I usually do a 8-10 shift of driving so the trip miles back aren't much. Secondly, no one calculates their net pay for their normal job based on their commute from home to work and vice verse. That's the entire point of why the IRS doesn't let you deduct it.

Your car is your work place. If you have the uber app on as soon as you leave the house, you are on the clock. It isn't a commute even if you want to drive to a different location.

 

[High Altitude]

I am sure there are some uber drivers that do OK. They are in the better locations, they drive the higher paying times of the day or night on the best days, they drive economical cars etc...They probably don't drive the slow times etc.... It sounds like you are one of those people and that is great. If it works for you and you have accurately and honestly run the numbers, fantastic, you are making some easy money.

 

[Lead]

Your car is your work place. If you have the uber app on as soon as you leave the house, you are on the clock. It isn't a commute even if you want to drive to a different location.

Double standard imo. The workplace is multiple locations I need to go to. I'm technically not at work until the first location which is almost always shorter than my commute to my first job each day.