Tyron Woodley vs Wonderboy part II - Who has the most adjustments to make?

[Threetrees]

Instant rematches are generally stupid in MMA, I don't think this one is an exception. But the first fight was great enough that I'm all in.

Which guy has the most to change to convincingly win a rematch?
I think Tyron won the last fight 1,3,4 and I didn't see my scorecard as being controversial. I see arguments for others, but after rewatching a couple times I still think thats the best way to call it

Even still, I favor Wonderboy in a rematch. I think he can fight almost exactly like he did last time and pull out a decision - and I also think the style matchup favors Wonderboy pretty much in all the same ways as last time, even if he doesn't land the cleaner harder shots he'll still get points with the judges for sheer volume and activity.

With Tyron I think he has to adjust a lot of his gameplan, because Wonderboy is still a match up nightmare on the feet. That or he has to commit to the takedown game, which I think he'd cruise to a decision win with if he did.

What say you?

 

[The Natural Born Runner]

Instant rematches are generally stupid in MMA, I don't think this one is an exception. But the first fight was great enough that I'm all in.

Which guy has the most to change to convincingly win a rematch?
I think Tyron won the last fight 1,3,5 and I didn't see my scorecard as being controversial. I see arguments for others, but after rewatching a couple times I still think thats the best way to call it

Even still, I favor Wonderboy in a rematch. I think he can fight almost exactly like he did last time and pull out a decision - and I also think the style matchup favors Wonderboy pretty much in all the same ways as last time, even if he doesn't land the cleaner harder shots he'll still get points with the judges for sheer volume and activity.

With Tyron I think he has to adjust a lot of his gameplan, because Wonderboy is still a match up nightmare on the feet. That or he has to commit to the takedown game, which I think he'd cruise to a decision win with if he did.

What say you?

1, 3 and 4 you mean.

Also 1 and 4 were 10-8 rounds in my book.

 

[Threetrees]

1, 3 and 4 you mean.

Also 1 and 4 were 10-8 rounds in my book.

thanks
also yeah, I had round 1 as 10-9 but it for me was a close to being a 10-8 as a round can be without a near stoppage

 

[The Natural Born Runner]

Wonderboy won rounds because Tyron essentially took them off.

In retrospect, it was a horrible performance by Stephen and his crowning moment is escaping a choke. That is literally the best thing he did in 25 minutes of action.

As one of the very few hardcore Tyron fans out here.

Fuck Wonderboy, this rematch is bullshit - wanted to see Maia, no way that fight was a draw.

 

[A_bomb47]

His ground game can't have improved enough in a few months to be comfortable with Woodley on top of him. That will seriously hinder his kicks since he won't want to risk getting taken down.

A little more active Woodley should win this.

 

[Threetrees]

Wonderboy won rounds because Tyron essentially took them off.

In retrospect, it was a horrible performance by Stephen and his crowning moment is escaping a choke. That is literally the best thing he did in 25 minutes of action.

As one of the very few hardcore Tyron fans out here.

Fuck Wonderboy, this rematch is bullshit - wanted to see Maia, no way that fight was a draw.

Yeah, I think Tyron has a clear path to victory with a gameplan switch. I thought he won the striking exchanges OR they were even anytime Tyron fought in the center or moved forward - and obviously the difference on the ground was pretty clear.

But I don't know if Tyron can stop the habit of backing up. HE said it was by design, but when he was talking to Din Thomas (his mentor for years) on their podcast, he alluded to Din not being particularly happy with that plan and I can't imagine that Roufus specifically wanted him to puthimself against the ropes/cage. That might mean they he'll do it again even if it's not in his best interest or his team specifically plans against it. Then again he's talked a lot about how he frustrated himself by not using his wrestling.

We'll see. This rematch reminds me quite a bit of the Shogun/Machida one. In terms of the "wilder" striker kind of figuring out and going tit for tat with the "better" one and arguably winning.

 

[FinBJJ]

Using "most" implies there are more than two things being compared.

 

[DS7]

Instant rematches are generally stupid in MMA, I don't think this one is an exception. But the first fight was great enough that I'm all in.

Which guy has the most to change to convincingly win a rematch?
I think Tyron won the last fight 1,3,5 and I didn't see my scorecard as being controversial. I see arguments for others, but after rewatching a couple times I still think thats the best way to call it

Even still, I favor Wonderboy in a rematch. I think he can fight almost exactly like he did last time and pull out a decision - and I also think the style matchup favors Wonderboy pretty much in all the same ways as last time, even if he doesn't land the cleaner harder shots he'll still get points with the judges for sheer volume and activity.

With Tyron I think he has to adjust a lot of his gameplan, because Wonderboy is still a match up nightmare on the feet. That or he has to commit to the takedown game, which I think he'd cruise to a decision win with if he did.

What say you?

I will actually do a breakdown in the future but we can start talking about it right now Also, finally a good thread to actually talk about MMA, it`s a rare thing these days on sherdog.

The first fight was a big chess game. I had it exacly like the judges, a draw, with Stephen Thompson taking 3 rounds but with the 4th being a 10-8 for Woodley who almost finished him.

I think we learned a few things with the first time, we saw both guys having a tremendous amont of respect for each other, there was moments where Wonderboy had Woodley backin up against the fence (as usual) and Woodley always gets very hesitant, static and always loses that called "window" to escape-with movement- and Stephen could have capitalized more on that but he was too afraid of Woodley`s power and rightfully so as we saw in that 4th round.

Woodley was also very hesitant in his offensive, probably because he knows that Wonderboy`s counter game is something out of the matrix.

We also learned that Wonderboy CANNOT make any mistakes, that was pretty much what cost him the fight, he was perfect standing all night...Until he reacted 1 second later and Woodley was able to land and he landed hard and almost finish the fight BUT, this is also something that can be a confident factor for Wonderboy because he knows now that he has a chin, he knows now that he CAN overcome adversity, that`s huge for a fighter, especially going into a rematch, we could and we will very well see a much more confident and relax Wonderboy on the feet and that will be a nightmare for Tyron to deal with it.

I think in terms of adjusting, Woodley has much more to do it but with the right game plan i think he could pull it off. First of all, that guy is a tank and he hits like a truck so there will always be the chance that he will land and finish that fight, he almost did it last time and he can very well do it in 25 minutes in there.

I think wrestling will not be much of a factor, Woodley took him down once in the first round and was because Wonderboy didn`t set up his kicks like usually does and wasn`t moving at all, he went for a leg kick when Woodley was in decent range and the speed was incredible, in 1 second he was down but it was something that Stephen knew he made wrong, adjusted in the fight and Woodley never again in that fight had the opportunity to take the fight to the ground, and i don`t think it will be something it will happen in the rematch either.

There is 2 things, one that Woodley needs to correct and other that he needs to implement.

-Like i talked in my breakdown for the first fight, he can`t back up against the fence in that stationary, hesitant way like that. He always does it and he always ends up in dead end and usually gets worked easily. He was against Rory and until that punch landed, Wonderboy was also controlling him and doing just fine. It`s a big mistake that Woodley does all the time and he needs to correct it otherwise he is fucked.

-Leg kicks. That dude has one of the best leg kicks in the division, probably the strongest leg kicks. Wonderboy has that wide side karaté stance, that leaves the opening for leg kicks. Woodley landed ONE in the first fight and you could see in Wonderboy`s face, we went "Oh shit...", i don`t understand why he didn`t use more of those, it`s like he freezes in there and has no awareness of adjustements as the fight goes on. I think leg kicks is the key for him, no fear of getting taken down, if he gets a few in it`s all it takes to take away a bit of Wonderboy`s movement and from there with success it would probably open doors to him be able to get much more offensive going and land and even the wrestling.

This being said, i think the same Woodley will appear, i don`t think we will see nothing new. From Wonderboy, i think he will be doing his thing like the first fight, he should open up more when he has Woodley backing up and just control the distance like he was doing in the first.

 

[DS7]

Shit, that was a long ass comment. There it goes my breakdown lol.

 

[The Natural Born Runner]

Yeah, I think Tyron has a clear path to victory with a gameplan switch. I thought he won the striking exchanges OR they were even anytime Tyron fought in the center or moved forward - and obviously the difference on the ground was pretty clear.

But I don't know if Tyron can stop the habit of backing up. HE said it was by design, but when he was talking to Din Thomas (his mentor for years) on their podcast, he alluded to Din not being particularly happy with that plan and I can't imagine that Roufus specifically wanted him to puthimself against the ropes/cage. That might mean they he'll do it again even if it's not in his best interest or his team specifically plans against it. Then again he's talked a lot about how he frustrated himself by not using his wrestling.

We'll see. This rematch reminds me quite a bit of the Shogun/Machida one. In terms of the "wilder" striker kind of figuring out and going tit for tat with the "better" one and arguably winning.

What's funny is, I think the backing up gameplan worked.

You minimize the space that Stephen has to advance, you know he's not going to try and wrestle or clinch you against the cage, and you can see the spinning shit coming a lot clearer.

Also, as Woodley mentioned himself, when he would throw back, he could explode into space with Wonderboy moving back. Pretty sure he clipped him with shots a few times like this.

I personally think Woodley fought a perfect fight. Don't gas yourself from activity in early rounds, even if it means giving up a round like Round 2. Funny thing is, even Round 2 was fucking close. Tyron absolutely wiped the floor with Wonderboy in terms of grappling control on the ground and embarrassed him in the 4th Round.

This idea that "he escaped and punched the floor a few times" means that he made Round 4 a 10-9, is RIDICULOUS.

 

[INoHespectChael]

His ground game can't have improved enough in a few months to be comfortable with Woodley on top of him. That will seriously hinder his kicks since he won't want to risk getting taken down.

A little more active Woodley should win this.

He actually said he was too tentative that fight and didn't throw enough kicks.

 

[HereToSlay]

Wonderboy needs to pressure Tyron more. Playing safe with him is recipe for disaster.

 

[Threetrees]

Using "most" implies there are more than two things being compared.

That's a silly distinction. You're being silly.

I will actually do a breakdown in the future but we can start talking about it right now Also, finally a good thread to actually talk about MMA, it`s a rate thing these days on sherdog.

The first fight was a big chess game. I had it exacly like the judges, a draw, with Stephen Thompson taking 3 rounds but with the 4th being a 10-8 for Woodley who almost finished him.

I think we learned a few things with the first time, we saw both guys having a tremendous amont of respect for each other, there was moments where Wonderboy had Woodley backin up against the fence (as usual) and Woodley always gets very hesitant, static and always loses that called "window" to escape-with movement- and Stephen could have capitalized more on that but he was too afraid of Woodley`s power and rightfully so as we saw in that 4th round.

Woodley was also very hesitant in his offensive, probably because he knows that Wonderboy`s counter game is something out of the matrix.

We also learned that Wonderboy CANNOT make any mistakes, that was pretty much what cost him the fight, he was perfect standing all night...Until he reacted 1 second later and Woodley was able to land and he landed hard and almost finish the fight BUT, this is also something that can be a confident factor for Wonderboy because he knows now that he has a chin, he knows now that he CAN overcome adversity, that`s huge for a fighter, especially going into a rematch, we could and we will very well see a much more confident and relax Wonderboy on the feet and that will be a nightmare for Tyron to deal with it.

I think in terms of adjusting, Woodley has much more to do it but with the right game plan i think he could pull it off. First of all, that guy is a tank and he hits like a truck so there will always be the chance that he will land and finish that fight, he almost did it last time and he can very well do it in 25 minutes in there.

I think wrestling will not be much of a factor, Woodley took him down once in the first round and was because Wonderboy didn`t set up his kicks like usually does and wasn`t moving at all, he went for a leg kick when Woodley was in decent range and the speed was incredible, in 1 second he was down but it was something that Stephen knew he made wrong, adjusted in the fight and Woodley never again in that fight had the opportunity to take the fight to the ground, and i don`t think it will be something it will happen in the rematch either.

There is 2 things, one that Woodley needs to correct and other that he needs to implement.

-Like i talked in my breakdown for the first fight, he can`t back up against the fence in that stationary, hesitant way like that. He always does it and he always ends up in dead end and usually gets worked easily. He was against Rory and until that punch landed, Wonderboy was also controlling him and doing just fine. It`s a big mistake that Woodley does all the time and he needs to correct it otherwise he is fucked.

-Leg kicks. That dude has one of the best leg kicks in the division, probably the strongest leg kicks. Wonderboy has that wide side karaté stance, that leaves the opening for leg kicks. Woodley landed ONE in the first fight and you could see in Wonderboy`s face, we went "Oh shit...", i don`t understand why he didn`t use more of those, it`s like he freezes in there and has no awareness of adjustements as the fight goes on. I think leg kicks is the key for him, no fear of getting taken down, if he gets a few in it`s all it takes to take away a bit of Wonderboy`s movement and from there with success it would probably open doors to him be able to get much more offensive going and land and even the wrestling.

This being said, i think the same Woodley will appear, i don`t think we will see nothing new. From Wonderboy, i think he will be doing his thing like the first fight, he should open up more when he has Woodley backing up and just control the distance like he was doing in the first.

I don't disagree with most of this, and that which I do disagree with is a matter of opinion.

Exception being the wrestling point.
Tyron rarely uses his offensive wrestling, and it's mindboggling why not. He only went for one shot against Rory, one against Wonderboy, none I think against Gastelum. Just pure pedigree wise he's a fantastic wrestler, and he has one of the perfect styles for success in MMA - he's extremely good counter wrestler with a big power series basically anytime he wants to use it. He was also a DIV-I coach for multiple years, and is an MMA wrestling coach and still wrestles with Ben Askren (one of the best collegiate wrestlers on the planet) pretty routinely.

I dont think there's a guy at WW he couldn't takedown if he really wanted to. Not saying every takedown would land, but if he really wanted to he could take any WW in the top 10 down pretty easily, regardless of spacing because he has the speed and penetration step (and he even had this in competition) to drive through the gap from distance. It's not a skill everyone has. Hendricks, for comparison, is not that kind of wrestler. Not really at least, his best series come from when he's already inside. So I disagree there, wrestling is as much of a factor in any Woodley fight as he wants it to be - he just thinks he's a better boxer than he actually is.

And I also agree with the use of the term "hesitant", I don't think he was hesitant. I think he realized that Wonderboy is a more active fighter with more tools, so he can't beat him off volume - and he's a better counter striker, so he can't beat him off pure aggression. The gameplan was, and he's confirmed this as has his coach, to counter the counter fighter. Which people in MMA always scoff at but that is THE gameplan to beat high volume counter guys. Feint-feint, draw the counter and try to counter back. It's actually the perfect gameplan for Woodey because he's faster and hits harder. It looks like he's hesitant because he's so married to it to the point where he chooses not to move forward to implement it (which I think makes it work better).

For example, that's how Cody beat Cruz who everyone assumed could counter him for days, except instead of putting his back against the fence, the planted his feet in the middle and let Cruz dance around infront of him. If that is the adjustment Woodley makes, and like you said he adds leg kicks or a jab (also pretty sure you were one of the people that laughed at me when I said Woodley should feature kicks in his gameplan, can't be sure though) it changes much of how the fight looks to judges and fans.

Either way, it's going to be a good fight. Like I said, I favor Wonderboy - I think Woodley has to change multiple factors to win, I think if he does there are paths for him to win super convincingly

 

[HereToSlay]

What's funny is, I think the backing up gameplan worked.

You minimize the space that Stephen has to advance, you know he's not going to try and wrestle or clinch you against the cage, and you can see the spinning shit coming a lot clearer.

Also, as Woodley mentioned himself, when he would throw back, he could explode into space with Wonderboy moving back. Pretty sure he clipped him with shots a few times like this.

I personally think Woodley fought a perfect fight. Don't gas yourself from activity in early rounds, even if it means giving up a round like Round 2. Funny thing is, even Round 2 was fucking close. Tyron absolutely wiped the floor with Wonderboy in terms of grappling control on the ground and embarrassed him in the 4th Round.

This idea that "he escaped and punched the floor a few times" means that he made Round 4 a 10-9, is RIDICULOUS.

I wouldn't expect anything rational from you based on your avatar

Woodley didn't take the rounds off. He just does terribly against the cage and when pressured

 

[ortizgnp]

That's a silly distinction. You're being silly.



I don't disagree with most of this, and that which I do disagree with is a matter of opinion.

Exception being the wrestling point.
Tyron rarely uses his offensive wrestling, and it's mindboggling why not. He only went for one shot against Rory, one against Wonderboy, none I think against Gastelum. Just pure pedigree wise he's a fantastic wrestler, and he has one of the perfect styles for success in MMA - he's extremely good counter wrestler with a big power series basically anytime he wants to use it. He was also a DIV-I coach for multiple years, and is an MMA wrestling coach and still wrestles with Ben Askren (one of the best collegiate wrestlers on the planet) pretty routinely.

I dont think there's a guy at WW he couldn't takedown if he really wanted to. Not saying every takedown would land, but if he really wanted to he could take any WW in the top 10 down pretty easily, regardless of spacing because he has the speed and penetration step (and he even had this in competition) to drive through the gap from distance. It's not a skill everyone has. Hendricks, for comparison, is not that kind of wrestler. Not really at least, his best series come from when he's already inside. So I disagree there, wrestling is as much of a factor in any Woodley fight as he wants it to be - he just thinks he's a better boxer than he actually is.

And I also agree with the use of the term "hesitant", I don't think he was hesitant. I think he realized that Wonderboy is a more active fighter with more tools, so he can't beat him off volume - and he's a better counter striker, so he can't beat him off pure aggression. The gameplan was, and he's confirmed this as has his coach, to counter the counter fighter. Which people in MMA always scoff at but that is THE gameplan to beat high volume counter guys. Feint-feint, draw the counter and try to counter back. It's actually the perfect gameplan for Woodey because he's faster and hits harder. It looks like he's hesitant because he's so married to it to the point where he chooses not to move forward to implement it (which I think makes it work better).

For example, that's how Cody beat Cruz who everyone assumed could counter him for days, except instead of putting his back against the fence, the planted his feet in the middle and let Cruz dance around infront of him. If that is the adjustment Woodley makes, and like you said he adds leg kicks or a jab (also pretty sure you were one of the people that laughed at me when I said Woodley should feature kicks in his gameplan, can't be sure though) it changes much of how the fight looks to judges and fans.

Either way, it's going to be a good fight. Like I said, I favor Wonderboy - I think Woodley has to change multiple factors to win, I think if he does there are paths for him to win super convincingly

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Woodley needs to be more aggressive and not get pushed against the cage

Also needs to use his wrestling more and not just rely on his right hand

 

[The Natural Born Runner]

I wouldn't expect anything rational from you based on your avatar

Woodley didn't take the rounds off. He just does terribly against the cage and when pressured

Well I just changed it to Tyron if you must know.

It was previously Dominick Cruz, then Yoel Romero and then Nick Diaz a punch of times, pretty sure 2Pac was in there also.



Tyron clearly took Round 5 off due to fatigue. Round 2 and 3 he arguably won, if you look at Rounds 1 and 4 when he wanted to up his activity he did so and he won them by a landslide.

Wonderboy was terrible in this fight, admit it.

 

[Threetrees]

What's funny is, I think the backing up gameplan worked.

You minimize the space that Stephen has to advance, you know he's not going to try and wrestle or clinch you against the cage, and you can see the spinning shit coming a lot clearer.

Also, as Woodley mentioned himself, when he would throw back, he could explode into space with Wonderboy moving back. Pretty sure he clipped him with shots a few times like this.

I personally think Woodley fought a perfect fight. Don't gas yourself from activity in early rounds, even if it means giving up a round like Round 2. Funny thing is, even Round 2 was fucking close. Tyron absolutely wiped the floor with Wonderboy in terms of grappling control on the ground and embarrassed him in the 4th Round.

This idea that "he escaped and punched the floor a few times" means that he made Round 4 a 10-9, is RIDICULOUS.

Yeah it "worked", but for two things. For one it gives the illusion that Wonderboy is controlling space and distance if you don't know what Woodley's intent is, for two it gives away long stretches of the fight if Tyron is inactive. He essentially backed himself into a corner for the right reasons, but it's not the "best" game to play, it's a strange tactic. I think Tyron had the right idea, but you can do the same things out in space with smart footwork. Like I alluded to in a previous post, Garbrandt had largely the same strategy. That's to back up/stand still and let the more active guy come towards him. But putting yourself against the fence? It's not a strategy built to win rounds, even if it works - that's just my opinion though.
It's an interesting idea on a lot of levels, because it also limits Wonderboy's offensive options though, so you're right in a sense I think, so I'm not totally disagreeing.

And yeah I thought rounds 1-4 were all close. Kenny Florian was saying that he gave round 2 to Woodley and Anik was saying he gave round 3 to Woodley at one point.

 

[Yari]

Tyron. Needs to adjust from being so racist.

 

[Threetrees]