Trump Reneges on Iran Nuclear Deal, Citing Non-Existent Violations

[Rod1]

Supporters of this deal in this thread can't even seem to come to an agreement on this.

Except that denuclearization was never on the table, Iran knows the US cant be trusted and they were right.

The deal just delays Iran breakout window.

 

[lfd0311]

They cant build these centrifugues on a large scale, nor keep the byproducts of whatever R&D produces.

The deal isnt supposed to denuclearize Iran, since Iran is complying with the IAEA and the NPT.

The objective of the deal was to delay any possible rush for a bomb.

Iran would have to kick the inspectors build a large amount of centrifugues, install them and begin enriching. That takes a while.

This is the crux of the argument. What about this agreement gives you some sort of indication that they'd have to do this, or that it would take a while?

 

[Rod1]

This is the crux of the argument. What about this agreement gives you some sort of indication that they'd have to do this, or that it would take a while?

The limitation of 300kgs of enriched Uranium and the 5000 old model centrifuges limitation.

 

[lfd0311]

The limitation of 300kgs of enriched Uranium and the 5000 old model centrifuges limitation.

They also get to keep using the IR-4, 5, 6, and developing and using the 8s. All of those are better than the 1s, which are what they used to build the stockpile that they had, using less than 5000 centrifuges. They also still have yet to reduce their stockpile to 300kgs

 

[Rod1]

They also get to keep using the IR-4, 5, 6, and developing and using the 8s. All of those are better than the 1s, which are what they used to build the stockpile that they had, using less than 5000 centrifuges. They also still have yet to reduce their stockpile to 300kgs

Only for R&D with limited installed capacity and they cant keep the enriched Uranium.

 

[lfd0311]

Only for R&D with limited installed capacity and they cant keep the enriched Uranium.

Yes they can. As they are still producing it and still aren't at the 300 kg limit.

 

[Rod1]

Yes they can. As they are still producing it and still aren't at the 300 kg limit.

July 2015, Iran had almost 20,000 centrifuges. Under the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), it will be limited to installing no more than 5,060 of the oldest and least efficient centrifuges at Natanz for 10 years.

Iran's uranium stockpile is set to be reduced by 98% to 300kg (660lbs) for 15 years. It must also keep its level of enrichment at 3.67%.

By January 2016, Iran had drastically reduced the number of centrifuges installed at Natanz and Fordo, and shipped tonnes of low-enriched uranium to Russia.

In addition, research and development will take place only at Natanz and be limited for eight years. No enrichment will be permitted at Fordo for 15 years, and the underground facility will be converted into a nuclear, physics and technology centre. The 1,044 centrifuges at the site will produce radioisotopes for use in medicine, agriculture, industry and science.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33521655

Where do you get that idea?

 

[lfd0311]

July 2015, Iran had almost 20,000 centrifuges. Under the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), it will be limited to installing no more than 5,060 of the oldest and least efficient centrifuges at Natanz for 10 years.

Iran's uranium stockpile is set to be reduced by 98% to 300kg (660lbs) for 15 years. It must also keep its level of enrichment at 3.67%.

By January 2016, Iran had drastically reduced the number of centrifuges installed at Natanz and Fordo, and shipped tonnes of low-enriched uranium to Russia.

In addition, research and development will take place only at Natanz and be limited for eight years. No enrichment will be permitted at Fordo for 15 years, and the underground facility will be converted into a nuclear, physics and technology centre. The 1,044 centrifuges at the site will produce radioisotopes for use in medicine, agriculture, industry and science.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33521655

Where do you get that idea?

It's like I never laid out for you how many centrifuges they were using for years. You aren't even reading my posts are you? You're just responding without reading the information I'm presenting.

 

[lfd0311]

1.) No, it hasn't given up it's stockpile. It was never required to give up it's stock pile.

2.) It could neither have been certified by the IAEA or have happened already because it isn't a prat of the agreement. What is a part of the agreement is they will limit their stockpile at certain times for certain reasons. Funny that guys like @HomerThompson and @Strychnine don't seem to know that.

3.) I'll just break down more of the spin of this agreement by the Left. First of all, let's address the "Iran has to give up it's centrifuges lie". No they don't. According to the agreement, Nantanz specifically can keep in operation 5,060 centrifuges. Sounds good in comparison to how many they have, right? Not when you actually read the reports and realize that that is essentially maximum capacity of centrifuges they've been able to keep in operation from 2009 to 2015 when they were amassing thier stockpile. 2010 is when we hit them with stuxnet, and that's where some of the drop off from 5 to 3 thousand occurs. After the recovery, they ramped up to full capacity to make up for lost time. In reality, all this agreement forces Iran to do is all they were doing prior to Stuxnet, and nothing more.

https://www.armscontrol.org/print/3988



From 2010:

http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/IAEA_Iran_Report_Analysis_18Feb2010.pdf






From 2011:





From 2012:





4.) "No plants other than Natanz are available for enrichment". Cool. Only 2 other plants were envolved in enrichment anyway, and neither of them anywhere on the level that Natanz is. So once again a major section of the agreement is utterly meaningless.

5.) The Fordow Underground Enrichment Center can no longer be used for enrichment and must be converted into a nuclear, physics and technology center.

Once again, sounds good at face value. Too bad They hadn't been using Fordow to enrich anything for two years prior to this agreement. Yet another major bullet point of the agreement that does not prevent or hinder Iran from doing anything they couldnt do before.

http://www.nti.org/learn/facilities/165/



So again, The US got Iran to agree to do a bunch of things they were already doing, and got them to agree to continue producing uranium at a rate they'd been producing it all along, while allowing them to keep a stockpile large enough to make somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-16 nukes, gave them 150 billion dollars to do it, and pretended like that somehow prevented them from doing anything. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

@Rod1 di you even f**king read this post?

 

[Rod1]

It's like I never laid out for you how many centrifuges they were using for years. You aren't even reading my posts are you? You're just responding without reading the information I'm presenting.

I am reading your posts.

Your posts arent arguing in favor of the general point you are making, if anything it argues that the Iran nuclear deal wasnt necesary since Iran had little centrifuges to begin with.

Which again ignores the tons of enriched Uranium they had and now they dont.

 

[Rod1]

@Rod1 di you even f**king read this post?

I did, where does it says that they get to keep enriching Uranium past the 300kgs mark? Or where does it says that they get to expand its enriching capacity and install as many centrifuges as they want?

What is the point you are arguing?

a) That Iran deal is useless because they can build a bomb.

b) That the Iran deal is useless because they couldnt build a bomb in the first place.

 

[lfd0311]

I am reading your posts.

Your posts arent arguing in favor of the general point you are making, if anything it argues that the Iran nuclear deal wasnt necesary since Iran had little centrifuges to begin with.

Which again ignores the tons of enriched Uranium they had and now they dont.

I can't honestly understand how you could think that's what I was arguing. READ THE WHOLE POST, THEN READ WHAT THE AGREEMENT STIPULATES.

 

[lfd0311]

I did, where does it says that they get to keep enriching Uranium past the 300kgs mark? Or where does it says that they get to expand its enriching capacity and install as many centrifuges as they want?

What is the point you are arguing?

a) That Iran deal is useless because they can build a bomb.

b) That the Iran deal is useless because they couldnt build a bomb in the first place.

Read the amount of centrifuges they were using in those years, then read the agreement and tell me how that restricts what they were doing.

 

[Rod1]

I can't honestly understand how you could think that's what I was arguing. READ THE WHOLE POST, THEN READ WHAT THE AGREEMENT STIPULATES.

The agreement says that Iran cant keep at any time more than 300kgs of 3.5% enriched Uranium at any given point. It also says that they cant have more than 5,000 IR-1 centrifuges installed.

 

[Rod1]

Read the amount of centrifuges they were using in those years, then read the agreement and tell me how that restricts what they were doing.

- The part where they had to give up 10,000 kgs of enriched Uranium and they cant enrich past 300 kgs.

- The part where they cant expand the number of installed centrifuges.

 

[lfd0311]

- The part where they had to give up 10,000 kgs of enriched Uranium and they cant enrich past 300 kgs.

- The part where they cant expand the number of installed centrifuges.

- They had 35,000

- They don't need to. What about that aren't you understanding. They get to keep the number of IR-1s that they built that stockpile with, plus use the 1,000 or so IR-4s, 5s and 6's and test and continue to develop the 8s. All of which or substantially more efficient than the 1s. What about this aren't you understanding?

 

[Rod1]

- They had 35,000

- They don't need to. What about that aren't you understanding. They get to keep the number of IR-1s that they built that stockpile with, plus use the 1,000 or so IR-4s, 5s and 6's and test and continue to develop the 8s. All of which or substantially more efficient than the 1s. What about this aren't you understanding?

- They had 35,000 kgs of enriched material now? source? Both Russia and the IAEA confirmed that Iran gave up most of its stockpile

- It took years to build that stockpile, them having 1,000 of the newest centrifuges wont allow them to go from 300kgs to 10,000kgs in a few months.

 

[lfd0311]

- They had 35,000 kgs of enriched material now? source? Both Russia and the IAEA confirmed that Iran gave up most of its stockpile

They had 35,00 pounds, my apologies.

- It took years to build that stockpile, them having 1,000 of the newest centrifuges wont allow them to go from 300kgs to 10,000kgs in a few months.[/QUOTE]

What part of "4 to 20 times more efficent" aren't you understanding? You also realize they refuse to let us inspect their military sites, that this deal is only in regards to civilian nuclear facilities, correct?

On top of that, you're once again arguing with the source of the material, Rod. You'er arguing with Iranians now.

https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-nuclear-salehi-could-resume-uranium-enrichment-five-days/28690366.html

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...he-groundwork-to-develop-nuclear-weapons-on-a

And you should just read this one because. Ray Takeyh is an Iranian-American who works for the State Department. He knows his business when it comes to Iran.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/22/iran-nuclear-deal-bomb-215636

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

While every international observer said Iran held up their end of the bargain, Trump is accusing Iran of non-existent violation of the deal. Looks like Trump is drinking that Israeli Kool-Aid again. Since EU, Russia and China all had a hand in crafting this deal, US might take a big credibility hit for refusing to honor its words.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41613314

Agreed. It s utter BS.

Crazy how American foreign policy is crafted by Israeli and Saudi interests.

We really live in a world of lies, it's sickening.

 

[Rod1]

They had 35,00 pounds, my apologies.

What part of "4 to 20 times more efficent" aren't you understanding? You also realize they refuse to let us inspect their military sites, that this deal is only in regards to civilian nuclear facilities, correct?

On top of that, you're once again arguing with the source of the material, Rod. You'er arguing with Iranians now.

https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-nuclear-salehi-could-resume-uranium-enrichment-five-days/28690366.html

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...he-groundwork-to-develop-nuclear-weapons-on-a

And you should just read this one because. Ray Takeyh is an Iranian-American who works for the State Department. He knows his business when it comes to Iran.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/22/iran-nuclear-deal-bomb-215636

1.- So? they still gave it all according to both Russia and the IAEA, they would have to start from near zero.

2.- 4 to 20 times more efficient isnt enough, it took several years to reach the current stockpile with thousands of centrifugues.

3.- There is no evidence of Iran secret military enrichment facilities.

4.- At not point was it argued that the deal was about denuclearization of Iran, Iran wont give up its nuclear program without a fight, it was about delaying the breakout window. The most important part of it being that Iran give up all its enriched uranium and stop enriching uranium.

5.- Ray Takeyh has which insider information again? Does he gets the same briefings as the SecDEF and the CJCS? Does he has the same technical knowledge as the top American nuclear scientists?

Dont come and drop names while you ignore the experts on the matter and those that have the insider knowledge. Specially if said people go and parrot the classical "Iran supports the murderous Assad" slogan.