Trump flirting with big Super Hornet order

[GhostZ06]

After meeting Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg later that month and getting his promise that the program would not exceed $4 billion, Trump warmed on the company. The president has even positioned the Super Hornet as a direct competitor to Lockheed Martin’s F-35.

Speaking today in South Carolina, Trump joked that, although he wants to buy more Super Hornets, “the problem is that Dennis [Muilenburg] is a very, very tough negotiator.”

“But I think we may get there,” he added.

During his time at the Boeing facilities, Trump met with a number of company executives, including Muilenburg. A pool report noted that before the speech, White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus was holding a brochure for the F/A-18 XT — another name for the “Block 3” or Advanced Super Hornet. That model is being considered as a potential rival to the F-35C, the naval variant designed to take off from an aircraft carrier.

After the speech, Trump told reporters that, unless prices continued coming down on the F-35, he would be prepared to cut future F-35 contracts and order more Super Hornets instead. He also advocated taking steps to increase the stealth of the Super Hornet, according to Time's White House correspondent Zeke Miller.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/trump-flirting-with-big-super-hornet-order



Ok seriously? how the fuck is a 4th generation plane consider a competitor? We'll need a hole new program to fill a roll on the F-35C...

 

[GhostZ06]

WASHINGTON — A sharp hike in the number of F-35As purchased in the near term could increase the overall price of the program, a US Air Force official warned Congress on Thursday.

Buying more F-35As over the next few years — while the program is still undergoing its development phase — could lead to higher than predicted retrofit costs in the early 2020s, when the Block 4 follow-on modernization program starts, said Maj. Gen. Jerry Harris, the Air Force’s deputy chief of staff for strategic plans, programs and requirements.

“If we were to procure at higher than planned rates” over the next five years, “the Air Force would have to retrofit aircraft already delivered to the fleet with Block 4 hardware and software modifications,” he said in written testimony delivered Thursday to the House Armed Services Committee.

“Once Block 4 delivers” beginning in 2021, “we should examine the option of accelerating the F-35A program above the current procurement rate to meet the 5th generation requirements necessary to balance the Air Force ability to fulfill national security objectives.”


The Air Force’s current budget plans call for buying an average of 48 F-35As per year from fiscal years 2018 to 2022, Harris notes. The fiscal 2017 request, which projects estimated procurement until 2021, shows the service buying 60 jets in 2021.

That plan could drastically alter under the Trump administration, which has called for an expansion of the service’s fighter force but also at times sharply criticized the joint strike fighter itself.

Top Air Force brass — including Air Force chief of staff Gen. David Goldfein and former Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James — have been circumspect with regards to a higher F-35 buy rate, stating that the need for additional combat air power will have to be weighed against the service’s other requirements. However, other influential leaders, including outgoing Air Combat Command head Gen. Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle, have said the service should ramp up to 60 planes a year as quickly as possible.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...buy-rate-until-follow-on-modernization-starts

 

[Lanx]

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/trump-flirting-with-big-super-hornet-order



Ok seriously? how the fuck is a 4th generation plane consider a competitor? We'll need a hole new program to fill a roll on the F-35C...

explain this airplane talk to me like someone whose only interraction with planes is having visted kitty hawk last year

relevant?

 

[Orgasmo]

The Super Hornet is a generation 4++, not your legacy 4th generation fighter jet. When the navy tried to get funding from Congress, they pulled a little trick in billing the F/A-18E/F as an "upgrade" to the F/A-18C/D. So when your average Joe Blow Congressman heard it, it was easier to stomach than buying new jets. In essence, the Super Hornet might as well by considered a new jet, with new engines, new avionics and much larger airframe.

The latest Advanced Hornet being developed by Boeing is superior to anything fielded by China, Russia or Europe. It's not an obsolete jet by any means.

 

[AviatorShades]

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/trump-flirting-with-big-super-hornet-order



Ok seriously? how the fuck is a 4th generation plane consider a competitor? We'll need a hole new program to fill a roll on the F-35C...

I don't like to pretend I'm an expert on topics I'm not really an expert on so I'll phrase this as a question rather than a statement: Isn't the primary difference between modern generations of military aircraft their electronic warfare packages and internals/avionics since acrobatic dogfighting is essentially extinct?

Isn't a heavily electronically upgraded FA18 thus comparable in role to the F35?

 

[Boagrius]

Isn't a heavily electronically upgraded FA18 thus comparable in role to the F35?

In short, no. The sensor, avionics and EW suite on the F35 are still well ahead of anything you're going to see on an Advanced Hornet. On top of this it is a VLO design, which allows it to operate behind enemy lines in a way that no Hornet ever could. For example:



The Super Bug is a great jet, but it's not nearly as future proof as the F35. It's used up just about all of its growth potential - the F35 hasn't even begun to do so yet.

 

[VivaRevolution]

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/trump-flirting-with-big-super-hornet-order



Ok seriously? how the fuck is a 4th generation plane consider a competitor? We'll need a hole new program to fill a roll on the F-35C...

How?

What piece of tech is on a F 35 that can't be put on a superhornet?

Is there some new advancement is aerodynamics I am unaware of?

For that matter what piece of tech is on a F 35 that can't be put on a F 15, or 16?

4th, 5th, 6th generation is a marketing phrase, not a capability.

Here is the real point though, this is being done to keep F-18 production from going to India.

My question is how many carrots is trump going to use?

Is he ever going to use a stick to keep jobs in the US, or is it all going to be bribes?

 

[Boagrius]

How?

What piece of tech is on a F 35 that can't be put on a superhornet?

For that matter what piece of tech is on a F 35 that can't be put on a F 15, or 16?

VLO signature management in both the RF and IR spectrums, EODAS, the Barracuda ESM suite, EOTS, CNI, the MADL datalink and all the required, inbuilt circuitry and (super)computing power to make them all talk to one another and function coherently... so just about everything short of maybe the radar.

 

[VivaRevolution]

VLO signature management in both the RF and IR spectrums, EODAS, the Barracuda ESM suite, EOTS, CNI, the MADL datalink and all the required, inbuilt circuitry and (super)computing power to make them all talk to one another and function coherently... so just about everything short of maybe the radar.

How why?

If you are talking stealth qualities, I can see that, but anything else is just wires and clip ons. It can be replaced.

At the very least, we should be looking at building something that is designed to be retrofitted.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I don't know anything about any of this
But I find the topic interesting
Will lurk

 

[Boagrius]

If you are talking stealth qualities, I can see that, but anything else is just wires and clip ons. It can be replaced.

- Afraid not. Things like EODAS, EOTS and Barracuda are integrated into the very DNA of the aircraft itself. Again, the circuitry and (super)computing power required to make them function properly are also unique to the F35 and cannot realistically be retrofitted to any F16/18/15 derivative past or present. Ditto for the engine, and the aerodynamic benefits of being able to carry everything internally and "stealthily".

- The stealth side of things is also utterly impossible to replicate in any 4th gen jet you care to mention, and its importance can't be overstated:



- The F35's "inards" are actually designed to be quite modular, so while you can't really retrofit its systems into a previous gen design, you CAN replace and upgrade all the systems in the F35 itself. Things like Advanced EOTS, cognitive EW, drone swarm control, SM6 CEC and Directed Energy Weapons are all technologies that are in the pipeline for the F35 that a SH could never use.

- Like I said, the Super Hornet is a great jet, but the F35 was designed from the ground up to incorporate vital technologies the SH can never realistically have and is in turn more future proof. It would be analogous to taking the GAU-8 from an A10 and retrofitting it to a Hornet - just not going to happen.

 

[IppoMakanuchi]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone hold his own with Ghost on one of these topics.

 

[Lanx]

- Afraid not. Things like EODAS, EOTS and Barracuda are integrated into the very DNA of the aircraft itself. Again, the circuitry and (super)computing power required to make them function properly are also unique to the F35 and cannot realistically be retrofitted to any F16/18/15 derivative past or present. Ditto for the engine, and the aerodynamic benefits of being able to carry everything internally and "stealthily".

- The stealth side of things is also utterly impossible to replicate in any 4th gen jet you care to mention, and its importance can't be overstated:



- The F35's "inards" are actually designed to be quite modular, so while you can't really retrofit its systems into a previous gen design, you CAN replace and upgrade all the systems in the F35 itself. Things like Advanced EOTS, cognitive EW, drone swarm control, SM6 CEC and Directed Energy Weapons are all technologies that are in the pipeline for the F35 that a SH could never use.

- Like I said, the Super Hornet is a great jet, but the F35 was designed from the ground up to incorporate vital technologies the SH can never realistically have and is in turn more future proof. It would be analogous to taking the GAU-8 from an A10 and retrofitting it to a Hornet - just not going to happen.

this subject is already difficult for non military ppl to get a grasp around...

do you HAVE to link a video with a robot voice?

 

[GtehMVP]

I don't know anything about any of this
But I find the topic interesting
Will lurk

lol ditto!

 

[Oedad]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone hold his own with Ghost on one of these topics.

Well its impossible to argue 2<1. A lot of people come into these threads trying to argue the merits of the equipment itself which isn't going to get you anywhere.

Of course the latest technology and designs are going to be technically superior to whatever came before it. Its impossible to argue that the Sherman is a better tank than an Abrams.

Its also impossible to claim anyone knows what another major conventional war would look like, and how our current equipment would actually perform in it.

What is possible to argue is why do we need to keep blowing 600-700 billion every year on having the most expensive shit for last century's wars.

 

[Vitor CroCop]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone hold his own with Ghost on one of these topics.

 

[VivaRevolution]

- Afraid not. Things like EODAS, EOTS and Barracuda are integrated into the very DNA of the aircraft itself. Again, the circuitry and (super)computing power required to make them function properly are also unique to the F35 and cannot realistically be retrofitted to any F16/18/15 derivative past or present. Ditto for the engine, and the aerodynamic benefits of being able to carry everything internally and "stealthily".

- The stealth side of things is also utterly impossible to replicate in any 4th gen jet you care to mention, and its importance can't be overstated:



- The F35's "inards" are actually designed to be quite modular, so while you can't really retrofit its systems into a previous gen design, you CAN replace and upgrade all the systems in the F35 itself. Things like Advanced EOTS, cognitive EW, drone swarm control, SM6 CEC and Directed Energy Weapons are all technologies that are in the pipeline for the F35 that a SH could never use.

- Like I said, the Super Hornet is a great jet, but the F35 was designed from the ground up to incorporate vital technologies the SH can never realistically have and is in turn more future proof. It would be analogous to taking the GAU-8 from an A10 and retrofitting it to a Hornet - just not going to happen.

Techno babble.

How is it built into the "DNA" of the aircraft?

You say it needs a supercomputer unique to the F-35, in what way is it unique?

Why can't you take the supercomputer and put it into another jet?

Is your argument that it would have to be redesigned?

Ok, fair enough, but I bet that is cheaper than whole new fighter jets.

 

[GhostZ06]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone hold his own with Ghost on one of these topics.

Orgasmo and Boagrius ...many of times.

 

[GhostZ06]

I don't like to pretend I'm an expert on topics I'm not really an expert on so I'll phrase this as a question rather than a statement: Isn't the primary difference between modern generations of military aircraft their electronic warfare packages and internals/avionics since acrobatic dogfighting is essentially extinct?

Isn't a heavily electronically upgraded FA18 thus comparable in role to the F35?

i mean...not really? There only so much you can do with a old frame. Besides its long over do to be replaced.





This isn't a replacement, its more or less an upgrade. If anything we should be upgraded our hornets to block III.



We tried to replace some of these with the A-12 Avenger II. which....failed

 

[Boagrius]

Techno babble.

How is it built into the "DNA" of the aircraft?

You say it needs a supercomputer unique to the F-35, in what way is it unique?

Why can't you take the supercomputer and put it into another jet?

Is your argument that it would have to be redesigned?

Ok, fair enough, but I bet that is cheaper than whole new fighter jets.

Actually I'm doing my best to keep this in layman's terms for you. You can't just retrofit the guts of an F35 into an older jet because they weren't designed to handle them to begin with. The weight, space and power margins just aren't there. The SH, for example, was never meant to cope with the sheer volume of data that the F35's sensor suite can generate. Add shared data onto this and it gets ridiculous.

Once you realise that many of the US's 4th gen assets are now becoming so geriatric that they're killing people, the whole retrofitting enterprise just becomes silly.