True or false: WMMA today is about at the same relative skill level as MMMA was during chuck’s era

[bd5919]

It's the same as MMA. always has been.

 

[RampageFaction]

Theres no doubt that there is a lack of skill in wmma. Alot of 2 dimentional fighters. What era would you say wmma is in relative to the history of men’s MMA? Id say there in a similar position as men’s mma during Chuck Liddell’s prime

I think they're similar but the skill was deeper during liddell's prime. That being said, I don't know if I'm in the minority for the reasons I don't watch WMMA. I just don't like watching women beat up on each other. I know it's sexist and not progressive but it just doesn't feel right to me. When it comes to big names, yes I can watch two equally skilled women fight whose stories I know.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Whats crazy is half the male fighters at the top levels of mma started fighting late or didnt start from any specific discipline or at least wasnt really good at the 1 they started at

Gsp started as karate kid lol

Jones was avarage as a collage wrestler

Silva didnt start as a striker

The african dude just started fighting a couple yrs ago now is the most feared man in the world

You'll shit on ronda for so called being 1 dimensional but guys like maia is still the creme of the crop in the ufc atleast ronda has some actual kos with her hands

We dismissing her striking skill because she was outstruke by a atg female boxer & 1 of the hardest punchers in wmma history???

That would be like maia being outstruke & kod by a career jackson\wilklejohn trained andre ward & a prime or juiced up vitor belfort

Well, Ronda's striking skill was absolute shit. No footwork, no head movement (thank you Edmond), no striking defense, etc. and it was her fault (well, her fault for sticking with such a shit coach) Fuck, she threw short because that idiot always slapped in too far when holding pads to make her look faster. Watch him coaching any of the women there (or those that were there). He is giving poor instruction on basics to all of them, and it shows in their stand up. Hell, two women went there and got worse.

Ronda had a lot of things going for her: great grappling (takedowns and ground), great natural athleticism (a huge advantage over some of the non-athletes she fought early in her career, particularly at 145), one hell of a work ethic and very disciplined when focused (see her weight cut to prove a point on TUF, where she won a rock climbing comp. in mid-cut).

But everything about her stand up was just plain terrible.

 

[kushkitaro]

Well, Ronda's striking skill was absolute shit. No footwork, no head movement (thank you Edmond), no striking defense, etc. and it was her fault (well, her fault for sticking with such a shit coach) Fuck, she threw short because that idiot always slapped in too far when holding pads to make her look faster. Watch him coaching any of the women there (or those that were there). He is giving poor instruction on basics to all of them, and it shows in their stand up. Hell, two women went there and got worse.

Ronda had a lot of things going for her: great grappling (takedowns and ground), great natural athleticism (a huge advantage over some of the non-athletes she fought early in her career, particularly at 145), one hell of a work ethic and very disciplined when focused (see her weight cut to prove a point on TUF, where she won a rock climbing comp. in mid-cut).

But everything about her stand up was just plain terrible.

Ive seen far worse than ronda at the highest levels especially in wmma bruh

Does cat or pena have great foot movement, head movement etc???

What about derek brunson with the lead chins lmaoooo???

80% of the women in the ufc have no head movement or foot movement

Edmond actually turned ronda into a great puncher & she went from not being able to throw a proper punch to annihilating bitches in mins

Was she acute on defense & had ali foot movement hell no

If thats what she wanted to do then yes edmond wasnt the overall answer

What ronda needed was a actual mma coach & camp

Teaching a judoka to become a boxer in the mma cage was a recipe for eventual disaster

 

[Eater of Souls]

Ive seen far worse than ronda at the highest levels especially in wmma bruh

Does cat or pena have great foot movement, head movement etc???

What about derek brunson with the lead chins lmaoooo???

80% of the women in the ufc have no head movement or foot movement

None of this makes Ronda any better. Because a bunch of women are shitty, does that make one of them less shitty? No.

Edmond actually turned ronda into a great puncher & she went from not being able to throw a proper punch to annihilating bitches in mins

No, she did not. Her technique is sloppy as hell, and your commentary here is clear indication that you have no idea what you are talking about. Along with little things like reasoned argument and critical thinking.

Was she acute on defense & had ali foot movement hell no

If thats what she wanted to do then yes edmond wasnt the overall answer

What ronda needed was a actual mma coach & camp

Teaching a judoka to become a boxer in the mma cage was a recipe for eventual disaster

None of which changes the fact that her striking was horrible. And she was not taught to become a boxer. You managed to make a straw-man argument out of your own statement. I did not think that was possible.

If this is the best you can do, please do not bother replying. If you insist on shit-posting, I am just going to put you on ignore.

 

[DaGenius]

False. I would say it’s near the ball park of that era as those guys weren’t too well rounded either.

What will be interesting is to see what wmma will look like in 10 years when all the girls who started training after seeing Ronda’s run come of age and start fighting pro

 

[dildos]

Considering very few women can strike like Chuck or Anderson or Wanderlei or Vigor or Igor and literally none can wrestle like any of the old greats, eh.. No.

just give it a few more years.

 

[Substance Abuse]

Lololololol.

 

[kushkitaro]

None of this makes Ronda any better. Because a bunch of women are shitty, does that make one of them less shitty? No.



No, she did not. Her technique is sloppy as hell, and your commentary here is clear indication that you have no idea what you are talking about. Along with little things like reasoned argument and critical thinking.



None of which changes the fact that her striking was horrible. And she was not taught to become a boxer. You managed to make a straw-man argument out of your own statement. I did not think that was possible.

If this is the best you can do, please do not bother replying. If you insist on shit-posting, I am just going to put you on ignore.

Edmond is a BOXING coach

 

[welcometohavoc]

Theres no doubt that there is a lack of skill in wmma. Alot of 2 dimentional fighters. What era would you say wmma is in relative to the history of men’s MMA? Id say there in a similar position as men’s mma during Chuck Liddell’s prime

It's hard to say because like lighter MMA classes, WMMA fighters rely more on things like speed and technique than power like higher weight classes do.

Just going by the eye test, I would say WMMA is still around the 2003 era

 

[Kingz]

False. MMA hasn’t really evolved as much as people want to believe. Just fighters got old and another generation arrived. A sprawl and brawler like Chuck in his prime would go just fine. Tito would do just fine. Couture would do fine. Matt Hughes would do fine. Obviously there are even fighters from that era still being competitive, especially at HW.

I don’t know where women’s MMA is, but Ronda represented a Royce Gracie type. There’s a few specialists but most of it is chicks who have been cross training for a few years and aren’t special at anything in particular. I think that’s still bottom and not representative of the shift that came with guys like Frank Shamrock.

 

[superpunch]

I know I am in the minority, but I do think the whole "MMA has evolved so much from 10 years ago" argument is slightly overplayed. Yes, as time goes on, sports improve because of training and strategy etc. There are plenty of fighters who are successful now who really don't look any different from 10+ years ago. I think Woodley today is worse than GSP was. I don't think Whittaker/Rockhold/Weidman are any better than Anderson. I don't think Stipe or Cormier are lights years ahead of Brock or Rampage/Chuck.

Sure, I would say on average the fighters are better today, but in a sport like MMA that could end up not meaning anything. Being more well rounded does not always = victory. If we are talking the early and mid 90's, then sure, the game was completely different. But the mid 00's until now I don't see a massive change. I just see guys training more disciplines opposed to mastering 1 or 2.

They're not light years ahead but they are ahead and Woodley is better than GSP.

The difference is in more effective grappling technique much more evolved striking. When's the last time you saw a guy get finished in mount in 2017? Notice how guys used the cage to get up more effectively than anywhere else in the octagon instead of getting pinned to it and finished in 2017?

Those alone would allow today's guys to win fights against the best guys of 2007.

Then factor in the quantum leap that striking has taken. Footwork. Jabs. Those weren't even things in 2007. GSP was considered revolutionary for throwing a jab.

 

[Deleted member 220895]

I would say they're still in the PRIDE 1-5 era. A few great standouts and a shit load of fighters with huge hearts but are still learning.

 

[superpunch]

Raising the average fighter skill set while not significantly increasing the skill set of the elite does not equal evolution. You're really hung up on the sweeps. Check out Demian Maia's sweeps. Half of his game is built around it. In terms of Rua, some may argue that Rua would have done better had he continued to use his sweeps. If you think the 100 best BJJ guys today beat the 100 best BJJ guys from a decade ago, I don't know what to tell you.

Speaking of the best, Demian Maia was there back in the mid-2000s, and he's still amongst the best BJJ guys today. He looks largely the same. I don't think you'd find anyone who claims Maia has significantly evolved.

Demian Maia has evolved tremendously..

He has takedowns now, for example.

Actually, all BJJ guys have takedowns now. That's another evolution of MMA from 2007 to 2017.

Some others:

- Technique against the cage for fighters on bottom; used to be death sentence, now it's the best place in the cage to get up from

- Mount never does anything anymore; used to be death sentence

- jabs and straights; every fighter has these now

- footwork and movement -- this is HUGE at the top now. Much more so than at the average UFC guys, actually. No one in 2007 could do anything like TJ can do.

I could go on and on

 

[Blanqa Blanqua]

Considering very few women can strike like Chuck or Anderson or Wanderlei or Vigor or Igor and literally none can wrestle like any of the old greats, eh.. No.

Yup

OP must have been written by a noob with no MMA knowledge or experience let alone context.

In fact I'd happily say TS is retarded.

 

[superpunch]

So I guess you don't remember the fight very well. That was an incredible showcase of mma skill and more evolved than what were seeing from the HWs today, and in many cases the lower classes. Great technical boxing, clinch work, the grappling was very high level, the submission attempts, escapes, reversals, transitions and adjustments. Not to mention that neither guy gassed. It was a fight that showcased a very high skill level of all aspects of mma.

Give me one HW fight post 2010 that was a higher level fight?? Or any fight for that matter?
.

Lesnar and Carwin would have killed Nog and Barnett. Cain and JDS too.. You can throw Cro Cop as getting destroyed as well.

 

[Prutfis]

 

[Eater of Souls]

Edmond is a BOXING coach

He did a shit job with every female fighter who walked through his doors. When you have a 100% failure rate, you are a disgrace, not a coach.

 

[Bubblun]

No. The number of males who were in wrestling, boxing, and muy thai all greatly outnumber the amount of women who do them now. The women who do them now likely picked it up as opposed to having been a lifelong sport.

The more numbers you have in the sports foundations the higher the skill level. In the old days talent was often too stubborn to get more well-rounded but you didnt have people like PVZ maybe getting a title shot because she was a dancer in h.s.

View attachment 311751

I agree 100 % with everything you said but that graph don't explain how the current generation of american wrestlers is widely regarded as the best generation ever.
Finally Team USA beat Russia at the World Championship.
Number of participants isn't everything.

How often did sweeps work a decade ago? The game is the same. The real improvements have been in terms of training and gyms. It makes it much easier for fighters to learn additional skills and be more well rounded when they have a wrestling coach, BJJ coach, striking coach, nutritionist, strength coach, cardio/agility coach, etc. all in one place.

This does not mean an evolution in the sport or a bunch of new techniques. It just raises the average skill levels of the fighters. The elite guys were already doing this many years ago.

Speaking of BJJ specifically, you think a black belt today is significantly better than a Royce Gracie or equivalent? I call bullshit.

Hmmm.... Evolution of BJJ. Can you tell me 10 chokes today that didn't exist 10 years ago?

I think it's more than slightly overplayed. I haven't see much evolution at all since the early 2000s. I think there are more (but not a lot more) fighters today that don't need a second job, so they're able to spend more time training. Somebody needs to point out these revolutionary new techniques that have changed the sport. It's a neat bit of propaganda, but that's about it.

As another poster mentioned, if anything, I see guys who give up more today than what we saw a decade ago.

No, I have not seen any real changes or startling new creativity in BJJ transitions. For every throw/mid air armbar this year, I can show you a chonan flying heel hook from the early/mid 2000s. No real evolution. There may be some more people doing it, but I have yet to see real improvement.

This is a post from Gordon Ryan instagram, the current ADCC, EBI, KASAI, .... champion.



"The goal for years was to find ways to advanced faster than the elite level guys. The goal now is to advance faster than the up and comers. History has always shown (in general) that the new generation will advance beyond the last. Getting to the top easy, but staying on top is what's hard because once you're on top the only way to go is down. What you saw tonight was someone (@craigjonesbjj) put me in more danger than almost any black belt world champion/ADCC champion has ever. This sport is evolving at a rate which people don't really understand. If you stop evolving, you will die in this sport."


You don't see improvements because you don't understand what are you watching, like most of the people here that don't see improvements into mma.
That's not an insult, the reality is that most of the people who train have not the tools to understand the little details that makes a technique works, or not, at the highest level.
But a person that doesn't train should have the intellectual honesty to keep his mouth shut about something he doesn't understand.

Raising the average fighter skill set while not significantly increasing the skill set of the elite does not equal evolution. You're really hung up on the sweeps. Check out Demian Maia's sweeps. Half of his game is built around it. In terms of Rua, some may argue that Rua would have done better had he continued to use his sweeps. If you think the 100 best BJJ guys today beat the 100 best BJJ guys from a decade ago, I don't know what to tell you.

Speaking of the best, Demian Maia was there back in the mid-2000s, and he's still amongst the best BJJ guys today. He looks largely the same. I don't think you'd find anyone who claims Maia has significantly evolved.

What if Demian Maia himself says that he is technically the best he has ever been?

Minute 3 and 40 seconds in this video


"I am feeling in the best shape of my life, technically and in terms of conditioning ..."


And this is Demian Maia explaining how he got better not compared to 10 years ago, but studying the fight before and what he could improve.

http://agfight.band.uol.com.br/en/s...-reveals-new-transition-learned-from-student/

“During this camp I discovered a new transition to the back control. Besides the transition I made against Condit, I learned a new one that allows my submission to be more efficient. A student and friend gave me a tip, I made same adjustments of my own and mixed it with something Rilion [Gracie] once told me. I’m constantly learning”, Maia told Ag. Fight.

“It changes a lot. Specially the back control. What I was doing a year ago is totally different form what I do now. It looks the same, but the details regarding the position of your body, arm control, angle and pressure, are constantly being evolved. The difference between the my submissions against Brown and Condit are clear. I put a lot of work there. After I fought Brown, I started to study the reason I had lost positions. I always do this kind of stuff and I was much more efficient against Condit”

Every single fighter that is on top today has worked his butt off and his working his butt off to remain ahead of the game.

So I guess you don't remember the fight very well. That was an incredible showcase of mma skill and more evolved than what were seeing from the HWs today, and in many cases the lower classes. Great technical boxing, clinch work, the grappling was very high level, the submission attempts, escapes, reversals, transitions and adjustments. Not to mention that neither guy gassed. It was a fight that showcased a very high skill level of all aspects of mma.

Give me one HW fight post 2010 that was a higher level fight?? Or any fight for that matter?

Now, you may find fights right now that are at that level. However the discussion was about how you cant possibly consider a fight from 10 years ago to be as a evolved as now. I showed you one fight, I can name many many more. So the discussion should pretty much be over.

Reading on here over the years people act like fighting was a brand new concept and was created in the 1990s and mixing forms is something that’s been going on for a just a few years.
It’s just really bizarre.


I know mma doesn’t have the history but when I was a young kid. I knew who the great boxers where decades before I was born and I can see yeah these guys are great fighters by any era.

I remeber when guys like Todd duffee were fresh on the scene and these new breed of hws would destroy the established guys said sherdoggers.
Because of bigger muscles and progressive fighting techniques.
Some of those old guard fighters are still top fighters today.

It’s like newer mma fans just want to see good fighters fail and they get pleasure out of it.

Today’s combat sports fans are just fucking nuts

In this video Shogun, Maia and Jacaré are invited in a popular TV show in Brasil.



I am going to translate the conversation around minute 2 and 10 seconds for everyone that doesn't understand portuguese because it tells everything about this topic.


TV host: "Each one of you has been victorious in the last UFC, with the years passing has been harder or easier to be successful?"

Shogun: "MMA is consistently in evolution, the sport is more competitive and harder to do, in reality is harder ..."

TV host. "Is harder because you are also gaining experience and ..."

Maia: "But is evolving also, formerly it was a sport of style versus style, later the fighters began training everything, and today there are a lot of specialists, the strategy grew a lot, the training is more modern ..."

Shogun: "There are more practitioners"

Maia: "... There are more people (into mma) thus the competition is bigger"

TV host: "And i imagine there is more work to study the opponent"

Maia: "A lot more, a lot more"

 

[YeahNo]

There is FAR more to jiu jitsu than just submissions.

And the sky is blue. What's your point?