True or false: WMMA today is about at the same relative skill level as MMMA was during chuck’s era

[YeahNo]

You're too focused on flash. What about sound defense. For example, how often do sweeps work today? Much less often. The game is different. If you can't see it, and refuse to hear that it may be, then that's on you. Keep an open mind is all I'd say when watching BJJ of the past and now.

How often did sweeps work a decade ago? The game is the same. The real improvements have been in terms of training and gyms. It makes it much easier for fighters to learn additional skills and be more well rounded when they have a wrestling coach, BJJ coach, striking coach, nutritionist, strength coach, cardio/agility coach, etc. all in one place.

This does not mean an evolution in the sport or a bunch of new techniques. It just raises the average skill levels of the fighters. The elite guys were already doing this many years ago.

Speaking of BJJ specifically, you think a black belt today is significantly better than a Royce Gracie or equivalent? I call bullshit.

 

[Luvhawky]

How often did sweeps work a decade ago? The game is the same. The real improvements have been in terms of training and gyms. It makes it much easier for fighters to learn additional skills and be more well rounded when they have a wrestling coach, BJJ coach, striking coach, nutritionist, strength coach, cardio/agility coach, etc. all in one place.

This does not mean an evolution in the sport or a bunch of new techniques. It just raises the average skill levels of the fighters. The elite guys were already doing this many years ago.

Speaking of BJJ specifically, you think a black belt today is significantly better than a Royce Gracie or equivalent? I call bullshit.

Additional skills and being more well rounded is a type of evolution. As for sweeps, infant remember the last time I saw one. Rua was famous for his sweeps, who was the last person he swept. As for Royce, I think he gets smoked by the 100 best BJJ guys today. Probably more.

 

[YeahNo]

Additional skills and being more well rounded is a type of evolution. As for sweeps, infant remember the last time I saw one. Rua was famous for his sweeps, who was the last person he swept. As for Royce, I think he gets smoked by the 100 best BJJ guys today. Probably more.

Raising the average fighter skill set while not significantly increasing the skill set of the elite does not equal evolution. You're really hung up on the sweeps. Check out Demian Maia's sweeps. Half of his game is built around it. In terms of Rua, some may argue that Rua would have done better had he continued to use his sweeps. If you think the 100 best BJJ guys today beat the 100 best BJJ guys from a decade ago, I don't know what to tell you.

Speaking of the best, Demian Maia was there back in the mid-2000s, and he's still amongst the best BJJ guys today. He looks largely the same. I don't think you'd find anyone who claims Maia has significantly evolved.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

When I think of evolution in a sport-sense (not scientific), I think more in terms of being able to survive and thrive in your environment.

That is, drop the X ranked fighter of Y weight class in 2006 into the cage against his 2017 analogue and see how he does. To the degree he fails to succeed is the degree to which MMA has evolved.

I don't think it makes much sense to simply view evolution in terms of new techniques (although BJJ has seen major advancement in leg locks in the last 5 years or so). Simply sharpening old techniques, or piecing together techniques more efficiently can improve your odds of winning a given environment. Ditto for general strength and conditioning improvements, or not training like an idiot like some of the old camps did.

Edit: As for Royce, with all due respect, peak Royce would be completely noncompetitive with the top BJJ players today at his size (I say that as a hobbyist brown who generally trends more towards self-defense BJJ than competition BJJ).

 

[Mr. Hammer]

I'll say true. I enjoy watching the girls fight though.

 

[Luvhawky]

Raising the average fighter skill set while not significantly increasing the skill set of the elite does not equal evolution. You're really hung up on the sweeps. Check out Demian Maia's sweeps. Half of his game is built around it. In terms of Rua, some may argue that Rua would have done better had he continued to use his sweeps. If you think the 100 best BJJ guys today beat the 100 best BJJ guys from a decade ago, I don't know what to tell you.

Speaking of the best, Demian Maia was there back in the mid-2000s, and he's still amongst the best BJJ guys today. He looks largely the same. I don't think you'd find anyone who claims Maia has significantly evolved.

Maia hasn't done anything in BJJ in a decade, is he still one of the best? What evidence is there he can still be a world champion against today's competition?

As for sweeps as I said before, for example, Not stuck on them. But give me a break about Ruas game being better if he used sweeps.

And raising the quality of defense requires that much better technique and setups to get finishes. Quality of defense has gone up at the top as well. There are modified versions of spider guard that didn't exist ten years ago, ankle locks that didn't exist from the de la riva guard. People are discovering new techniques constantly and new and creative ways to employ old ones.

Do you think quarterback play in the NFL has evolved in the last twenty years? The routes are the same. But defenses disguise themselves better, quarterbacks have to read more and make more adjustments. The mental game has evolved tremendously. It happens in all sports, the more mature ones take longer for evolutions but they still evolve.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

10yrs ago?

I dont think much has evolved in ten years, maybe training techniques, and the grapplers are becoming better at striking.

I think you have to go earlier than 10yrs ago to even start comparing the skill level of WMMA.

I just wish they had there own fight cards/shows.

I do not like the fact they are mixed in with the men and taking main card slots over way more polished fighters in order for WME to push the agenda.

Seriously, even here, it seems like there are enough WMMA fans that UFC could just have all women cards now with new classes being added.

Like UFC 220, why the fuck is Kish vs Kim on the main slot over guys like Thomas Almeida is way fucking beyond my scope of thought.

You are giving the untrained general public the idea that these two are the “high-level” of the game....

 

[Gamer2k4]

Honestly though the latter argument for me most often seems to be a bit of a copout, basically "Yeah I know these fighters don't LOOK great but believe me theres some super special hidden talent here that wasn't around in the past".

At HW for example I think its become MUCH easier to get finishes against high level opponents, high quality defence(Reem is good at range I spose but poor close in) is almost non existant today. Equally across the sport as a whole I think we've seen a reduction in the number of really dangerous sub grapplers, that's given rise to a lot of tactics(ironically that Chuck helped pioneer with his "just stand up" style) that make things seem a lot easier. When you have someone like Maia turn up though suddenly a lot of fighters who are used to easier escapes end up looking silly.

But you just said it yourself: finishes are easier where defense is worse. Is it any wonder competitive divisions don't always have many finishes, given how technically sound the fighters in them are?

 

[JKS]

I'm not a fan of the thread question, but there is no chance a fight from over ten years ago displays more skill than today. Especially considering how much BJJ evolved in the YouTube era and how young the sport is.

As I write this, the only thing that actually may make that true is the injection of athleticism into the pool of talent. Where athleticism would win at the top. But I still find it hard to believe especially considering how evolved both those fighters truly were standing and how more evolved the ground game is today.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness. Just felt like responding that way.

LOL. It's clear you havent watched Nog vs Barnett. Those guys were far more skilled then most HW, not just Hw but overall fighters today. MMA hasnt evolved as much as people like to think it has. Difference is there is a much bigger depth of skilled fighter compared to 10 years ago but the top guys are pretty much evenly skilled. Fighters and coaching has also evolved in terms of game planning. Take a look at some of the champs today and compare them to 2007. Stipe more skilled that Fedor? Whitaker more skilled than Anderson? Woodley more skilled than GSP? Conor more skilled then BJ Penn??

So yea....lets compare Nog vs Barnett to say any HW fight of today. Lets even go back to the Cain/JDS trilogy. Its no comparison.

 

[Luvhawky]

LOL. It's clear you havent watched Nog vs Barnett. Those guys were far more skilled then most HW, not just Hw but overall fighters today. MMA hasnt evolved as much as people like to think it has. Difference is there is a much bigger depth of skilled fighter compared to 10 years ago but the top guys are pretty much evenly skilled. Fighters and coaching has also evolved in terms of game planning. Take a look at some of the champs today and compare them to 2007. Stipe more skilled that Fedor? Whitaker more skilled than Anderson? Woodley more skilled than GSP? Conor more skilled then BJ Penn??

So yea....lets compare Nog vs Barnett to say any HW fight of today. Lets even go back to the Cain/JDS trilogy. Its no comparison.

Is it clear? I haven't watched it in a decade. Come at me differently if you want to have a conversation.

 

[JKS]

Is it clear? I haven't watched it in a decade. Come at me differently if you want to have a conversation.

So I guess you don't remember the fight very well. That was an incredible showcase of mma skill and more evolved than what were seeing from the HWs today, and in many cases the lower classes. Great technical boxing, clinch work, the grappling was very high level, the submission attempts, escapes, reversals, transitions and adjustments. Not to mention that neither guy gassed. It was a fight that showcased a very high skill level of all aspects of mma.

Give me one HW fight post 2010 that was a higher level fight?? Or any fight for that matter?

Now, you may find fights right now that are at that level. However the discussion was about how you cant possibly consider a fight from 10 years ago to be as a evolved as now. I showed you one fight, I can name many many more. So the discussion should pretty much be over.

 

[Luvhawky]

So I guess you don't remember the fight very well. That was an incredible showcase of mma skill and more evolved than what were seeing from the HWs today, and in many cases the lower classes. Great technical boxing, clinch work, the grappling was very high level, the submission attempts, escapes, reversals, transitions and adjustments. Not to mention that neither guy gassed. It was a fight that showcased a very high skill level of all aspects of mma.

Give me one HW fight post 2010 that was a higher level fight?? Or any fight for that matter?

Now, you may find fights right now that are at that level. However the discussion was about how you cant possibly consider a fight from 10 years ago to be as a evolved as now. I showed you one fight, I can name many many more. So the discussion should pretty much be over.

Ok just rewatched it, it was a fun fight, with a lot of back in forth. I do feel the standup game in MMA is far superior to what they displayed, particularly the footwork. Their ground game was absolutely high level. You repeatedly you saw dominant positions given with little resistenance and ceded due to over aggression. What I do appreciate is the lack of stalling and I think that is why I have the previous impression of back in forth being unnecessary. All in all it is better to see them be aggressive on the ground than conservative so I really shouldn't dock them for giving up positions so easily.

And thank you for your response not including attacks. This site has gotten out of control on the way people talk to each other. I'm just hear to chat and aren't insulted if people think I'm wrong...

 

[Headkicktoleg]

Hmmm.... Evolution of BJJ. Can you tell me 10 chokes today that didn't exist 10 years ago?

There is FAR more to jiu jitsu than just submissions.

 

[Eater of Souls]

And thank you for your response not including attacks. This site has gotten out of control on the way people talk to each other. I'm just hear to chat and aren't insulted if people think I'm wrong...

No kidding. You guys had a nice little exchange.

 

[dudefacemcghee]

Considering very few women can strike like Chuck or Anderson or Wanderlei or Vigor or Igor and literally none can wrestle like any of the old greats, eh.. No.

Natural man strength I think plays the biggest role in that

 

[Twc]

I wouldn't say women's MMA has 2 dimensional fighters. You can argue Ronda was 1 dimensional as an elite grappler. No matter what Edmond said about her striking, she got destroyed by Holly and Nunes.

Also would you define Chuck's era as in the late 90s to early or mid 2000s? And when would you define MMA as evolving? Chuck's last fight was in 2010 and he was still very competitive with Rich Franklin. I remember him winning the fight until he got KOed. He just had no chin anymore.

So no I wouldn't say women's MMA skill level now isn't close to men's during Chuck's era

 

[kushkitaro]

Please find me 1 sport where athleticism & strength is displayed where women are anywhere near as skilled as men

Their women shit head they dont have the bone extremities of men

You'll will continue to wait for the day we will ever see a bunch of famale rockholds or bones jones

You will continue to see the same as today yrs down the line but with more rondas, valentinas, roses & jjs

Most women will not be athletic enough to impress you shallow meat heads no matter how many years they've been doing some type of combat sport

 

[kushkitaro]

Whats crazy is half the male fighters at the top levels of mma started fighting late or didnt start from any specific discipline or at least wasnt really good at the 1 they started at

Gsp started as karate kid lol

Jones was avarage as a collage wrestler

Silva didnt start as a striker

The african dude just started fighting a couple yrs ago now is the most feared man in the world

You'll shit on ronda for so called being 1 dimensional but guys like maia is still the creme of the crop in the ufc atleast ronda has some actual kos with her hands

We dismissing her striking skill because she was outstruke by a atg female boxer & 1 of the hardest punchers in wmma history???

That would be like maia being outstruke & kod by a career jackson\wilklejohn trained andre ward & a prime or juiced up vitor belfort

 

[Bagatur]

not even close, and will never be. not because not enough time, but because they are women.
before you get sand in your vagina, look at other sports with histories way longer than MMA. women's olympic caliber athletes are on the level of men's highschoolers.

 

[Black Paladin]

People have been beating each other's ass for money for a very long time, but modern MMA is relatively young (25+ years). Not Erick Silva young, but Sage young.

As a way of comparison:
Twenty-five (25) years into pro American football, it was 1945.
Twenty-five (25) years into pro basketball, it was 1923.
Twenty-five (25) years into pro baseball, it was 1901. (Arguably 1896)
Twenty-five (25) years into pro hockey, it was 1929.

(By pro I mean full-time players, permanent, organized teams, leagues, et.)