Tried Japanese jiu jitsu

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by cardkid, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. cardkid Yellow Belt

    cardkid
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    I currently train in bjj and decided that I want something else to do on nights I'm free and no bjj training on. So I found a small jiu jitsu school not too far away which I thought might be cool and maybe add to my bjj game. It turns out that I was quite wrong.

    I'm a little confused about why on earth you'd be practicing this material art in 2017. It also felt that the practitioners thought it would legitimately work.
     
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  2. Mr Rick White Belt

    Mr Rick
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    What was the problem with it? I've never done Japanese jujitsu (jjj?).
     
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  3. Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

    Dogstarman
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    Can you please elaborate on why you think it sucks.
     
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  4. Crotalis Yellow Belt

    Crotalis
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    The thing about traditional JJJ is that it's not all the same. You've got your traditional/officially recognized Koryu versions of it, you've got some other "non-official but still legitimate" versions of it, and then there's a lot of people doing terrible Karate, combining it w/sloppy Judo and calling it "Japanese JiuJitsu". Originally in Japan, the term was used ot describe any form of hand-to-hand combat. So one JJJ school could focus entirely on throws while another was all about the kicking/punching etc.

    These days (IMO) most JJJ schools (in the U.S. at least) are more like historical preservation societies/LARPERS than anything else. I've seen a few good schools, but for the most part, it's a lot of wacky nonsense. At one school for example, before applying a RNC, I was told I had to circle my hands/arms in a very particular way. When I asked why (because it was really weird), they looked at me like I was an idiot and explained that it was the best way to get around the Samurai helmet ...

    TL;DR:

    When it comes to JJJ schools, YMMV but buyer be ware.
     
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  5. Matsukaze Orange Belt

    Matsukaze
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    It's like anything else in martial arts.. there's really good systems out there and there's total crap. I have a background in a JJJ style and I still use the stand up self defense moves I learned from it. I like it waayyy better than the Brazilian/Gracie stand up self defense moves ( except the closing the gap/clinching stuff).
     
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  6. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
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    I'm guessing you went to one of those places where they throw a punch and leave the arm out for you to grab and do stuff to, or throw them? People get into this stuff that don't know anything about real fighting. It seems crazy to us that do combat sports, but I spent years and years doing Aikido-ish TMAs. You're brought in when you don't know shit and you fall into the group-think. Now I look back and I see that 90+ % of it was stupid and would never work, but in the moment it's not like that.
     
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  7. Quebec Nick Blue Belt

    Quebec Nick
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    For me, the self-defense, TMA, Aikido, Kung fu stuff gets a lot of undeserved hate. They all come from a good place, they just never found a way to test their stuff and to train people efficiently and with resistance.

    BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Kickboxing, MT, TKD and even some sorts types of karate, they built a sport with competition, a scoring system and training methods. We can test the techniques in training, not in a scenario, we can do sparring to upgrade our reflexes and reactions...

    You can't compare those mystical martial arts with those sports, it's impossible for them to get the same level of efficiency by just drilling stuff in an almost prowrestling scenario.

    Technique and drilling are important but it's sparring part that gives you the edge over non-sport martial arts. I prefer having no ''self defense'' classes but having drilled and tried a lot of ''sport combat'' than having a ton of self defense drilling but no combat experience.
     
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  8. cardkid Yellow Belt

    cardkid
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    Don't get me wrong, if people like it and are happy doing it then thats awesome.
    But to me it just didn't seem like it would be effective in a fight with someone who knows a thing or two.
     
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  9. EGDM Blue Belt

    EGDM
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    What's JJJ like? Just watch a BJJ self defense class.

    The myopia around BJJ self defense is hilarious. It's 99% bullshit for EXACTLY the same reasons everyone makes fun of Aikido and JJJ. In ten years I have never once seen a BJJ "self defense class" that introduced full resistance. For a martial art that puts down all the others because they don't spar, this is... bizzare.

    Unless you have (nearly) full resistance as part of the practice, you're just play-acting. You could be teaching the highest-percentage moves in the world but your students won't be able to execute them. No one is immune to that.

    (Note - I am NOT saying BJJ is bad for self defense. The value, however, is the sport techniques that you hone in sparring. This was the whole point the founding of Judo.)
     
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  10. CFGroup Green Belt

    CFGroup
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    Yet again find a freestyle Judo school that has a good comp team of instructors AND Kosen NeWaza oriented instructor AND does a lot of Goshin Judo....Good luck with that...

    But

    In a club like that you'll find fellow students that will test you with resistance on the more JJJ aspects cause they know how to bail Ukemi rather than get hurt from weird locks, like Olympic Judo or BJJ.

    Yeah, most JJJ you find is going to be symbolic unless you stumble onto a good lineage holder which is rare but not impossible.
     
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  11. cardkid Yellow Belt

    cardkid
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    I also thought the grades were weak too.
     
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  12. esteven Blue Belt

    esteven
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    The issue isn't that they've somehow never found a way to test their hypotheses ("try to stop me" isn't all that complicated or elusive); they just refuse to.
     
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  13. Hotora86 火虎 空手道

    Hotora86
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    One could argue that Judo distilled the essence of JJJ and threw out all the BS...
     
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  14. EndlessCritic Gold Belt

    EndlessCritic
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    For any given martial art, you're going to have a range of variation between different clubs which claim to be practicing that martial art.

    Are there good JJJ schools out there? Possibly. Is OP's experience representative of the average JJJ school? Likely.
     
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  15. Pipe Green Belt

    Pipe
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    I studied for many years. Good JJJ studios do constant randori standing and on the ground, and kata is deemphasized. In bad dojos, it's all kata and those schools have no martial value. You would enjoy one of those places because standing randori is so much harder than grappling as any judo guy will tell you.
     
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  16. trustdoesntrust Green Belt

    trustdoesntrust
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    Exactly. Even the silliest martial arts are usually based on a valid concept (leverage, counter-striking, targeting vulnerable areas, etc.), so that's not the problem. It is their wildly untested applications of these concepts that is the problem.
     
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  17. Balto Silver Belt

    Balto
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    You are taking the "only full resistance training" works thing too far here. There are lots of real world, easily observable examples that disprove that theory.

    Have you ever watched something new on YouTube, drilled it a few times on a non resisting opponent, and then hit it perfectly the very first time you tried it live on a resisting one? This is pretty common among BJJ practitioners. But if the only way we could learn realistic things was to practice them against full resistance, this should not be possible. The fact that it is possible suggests that we are able to learn realistic things sometimes by practicing against a passive partner. And sometimes we can learn realistic things visually by just watching a few times.

    One of the biggest training gaps I have observed between the best competitors and more "average" practitioners is not the amount of full resistance rolling done. That gap is not that big usually. The big gap is that the best competitors do far, far more drilling against lower levels of resistance.

    Again, if the only way to get better was to train against full resistance, this shouldn't matter much. But it seems to be the biggest factor of all in my experience.

    The model I use to explain it that seems to capture the real world a little better is that your drilled technical knowledge is kept in a higher level part of your brain. This is easy to access when you're not under stress. However, under stress, this is much harder to access. Your brain reverts to the low level, fight or flight mode. This is why you see the technique of guys who never train under stress go completely out the window as soon as they face real resistance. It's as if they never trained at that point.

    However, if you do spar somewhat regularly (with anything really), your brain learns to access that part of your brain even under stress. It stops reverting automatically. So now you can start pulling off things that you have mastered while not under stress, even if those particular things have never been tried under stress before.

    This is why "drillers are killers." Thousands of reps against low resistance still builds skill that can be recalled by a good competitor in the stress of a match because that competitor has learned not to panic from the stress. If someone ONLY ever drilled, this would never work because they would freeze from the stress response immediately. But a mix of full resistance sparring and low resistance drilling almost always beats someone who trains primarily full resistance. In fact that's one of the best pieces of advice I ever heard from a world level (IBJJF BB Mundial winners, ADCC champs, etc.) coach: "Spend less time rolling and more time drilling."

    So it isn't really fair to say 99% of lower resistance BJJ self defense practice ends up being bullshit. That doesn't match the reality I've seen with plenty of guys using that stuff in real fights under stress. Sport BJJ rolling and competition gives you plenty of chances to practice dealing with stress, so the lower resistance self defense stuff can still work when you need it.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't test self defense techniques under stress either; it's more realistic and good to do. But acting like passive resistance reps of self defense can't build skill applicable under stress is just ignoring tons of real world evidence out there.
     
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  18. Balto Silver Belt

    Balto
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    There's also this misplaced belief that JJJ, Aikido, Kung Fu, etc. all have this good fundamental technique but are just hamstrung by their lack of sparring. Real world experience shows otherwise.

    If the techniques were good but they just didn't spar, then all the guys I know who crossed over into BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, MMA, etc. would still be able to use those techniques they spent years honing in their former arts once they figured out how to deal with live resistance. But they throw the vast majority right out and never look back.

    Why? Because the techniques were bad to begin with. Period. Most of it just doesn't work no matter how you train it.

    The guys who do those arts and yet somehow seem to be effective because they actually spar? They all basically use the same core set of techniques that you see in the realistic arts anyway. There are minimal/no differences. The TMA only techniques that are actually different turn out to be just crap.

    You can take classical Aikido and spar all you want with it. It's still not going to work very well. You are trying to polish a turd.
     
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  19. EGDM Blue Belt

    EGDM
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    I think we are agreeing with each other. Perhaps I should have said that if much of the BJJ self defense curriculum were practiced with greater resistance we would discover that the techniques are bad.

    I did Aikido for 15 years before I switched to BJJ. I know exactly how that training feels and what that gets you in terms of useable skill. There is almost no difference beyond aesthetics between a good chunk of Aikido and the self defense curricula I've seen in BJJ (and don't get me started on "women's self defense seminars").

    I mean, really?:



    I have personally heard eighth-degree BJJ black belts advocating this kind of training as important. I find that confusing.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  20. Balto Silver Belt

    Balto
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    Some stuff can be goofy, but in general I don't see THAT horrible stuff being taught in BJJ. I did Karate for a long time beforehand so I have some self defense technique preferences from there too (i.e. why do we always throw the guy as a headlock defense before we even bother to hit his groin? at least throw a shot since it's right there). But in general, the BJJ stuff is not that crazy.

    A lot of those BJJ techniques are similar (if not identical) to stuff that is taught to LE and military. That doesn't mean it's perfect, but there's also a reason why they use those types of techniques. It's not because they are obsessed with ancient samurai or don't care about real effectiveness. The training methods aren't that different either.

    BJJ usually stays away from the "kick the knife out of his hand" type of crazy stuff. I'm not in love with every self defense technique commonly taught, but what I see is not worthless on the whole.
     
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