Trans Pacific Partnership - continuing the conservative assault on working people

The TPP is designed to contain China's regional influence.

It's part of Obama's 'Pivot to the East' strategy.

It's an even more important endeavor at this point with Russia also moving east.

Dude, people in here are up in arms of the manor in which the trade agreement will be negotiated. It's a fucking nut house lol.

The ignorance about this issue is fucking astounding. If trade agreements had to be negotiated without fast track authority we probably wouldn't have any.

I'm sure there are some extremists on here who would be fine with that like IDL.
 
I always enjoy your posts and insight from Spain, bro. Keep it up.

thanks. I've thought about making a big thread on spanish politics, but the new cases of corruption are so frequent that keeping it updated would require some serious effort. I might try when I have the time.
 
In America, that's the same thing. "Conservatives" are what we call people who fight for the interests of the rich.

Your beloved "Liberal" Democrats doing the same. How is this possible?


If you'd cut the my team is better than your team shit, and try for once not being the constant shit-hook many take you for, you'd likely be a very helpful fellow in discussions such as these.

Unfortunately, instead of ever looking for a shred of common ground, you make comments like the one I quoted. You ever gonna out grow that sort've stuff?
 
Your beloved "Liberal" Democrats doing the same. How is this possible?


If you'd cut the my team is better than your team shit, and try for once not being the constant shit-hook many take you for, you'd likely be a very helpful fellow in discussions such as these.

Unfortunately, instead of ever looking for a shred of common ground, you make comments like the one I quoted. You ever gonna out grow that sort've stuff?

There are "liberal democrats" and "conservative democrats".

Liberal Democrat - Elizabeth Warren
Conservative Democrat - President Obama
 
Your beloved "Liberal" Democrats doing the same. How is this possible?


If you'd cut the my team is better than your team shit, and try for once not being the constant shit-hook many take you for, you'd likely be a very helpful fellow in discussions such as these.

Unfortunately, instead of ever looking for a shred of common ground, you make comments like the one I quoted. You ever gonna out grow that sort've stuff?

Help us out. What are the great ideas being churned out from the right? All I see is "eliminate the capital gains tax", "repeal Obamacare (no alternative)", "reduce the top tax rates", "cut spending", "climate change is a hoax" etc.. Please, if there are some great ideas coming from the right please do share. But all I see upward distribution of wealth, climate change denial and the occasional batshit crazy statement on gay marriage or abortion.
 
We are a global community now guys. We (Americans) have to sacrifice for the bigger picture. Our 1st world way of life is unsustainable. There are limited resources available. We must spread them out evenly among everyone. We are living in a borderless age. One planet, one people.
 
Your beloved "Liberal" Democrats doing the same. How is this possible?

Huh?

If you'd cut the my team is better than your team shit, and try for once not being the constant shit-hook many take you for, you'd likely be a very helpful fellow in discussions such as these.

If you'd cut the stupid partisanship out, you'd get more out of other people's posts.

Unfortunately, instead of ever looking for a shred of common ground, you make comments like the one I quoted. You ever gonna out grow that sort've stuff?

The comment that you quoted is 100% correct.
 
We are a global community now guys. We (Americans) have to sacrifice for the bigger picture. Our 1st world way of life is unsustainable. There are limited resources available. We must spread them out evenly among everyone. We are living in a borderless age. One planet, one people.

This is true.

Equality demands redistribution, and if that means everyone is poor, (except the few at the top of course who are extra equal) then that is for the greater good.
 
The ignorance about this issue is fucking astounding. If trade agreements had to be negotiated without fast track authority we probably wouldn't have any.

Agreed. Giving the President fast-track authority not only has precedence but it ensures that every little agreement in trade negotiations isn't debated to death derailing the whole process. I get it people's concerns over the secrecy of this trade agreement and the concern over jobs but a lot of what critics claim has been either exaggerated or simply not true.
 
Giving fast track authority has been a mistake in the past, it's a mistake every fucking time.

This is a SERIOUS trade agreement, every little bit SHOULD BE debated and given to the public for a chance to dissect. The reason it isn't is because it would be derailed - because people would fucking hate it - so it SHOULD BE DERAILED.

Jesus H Christ.
 
Giving fast track authority has been a mistake in the past, it's a mistake every fucking time.

This is a SERIOUS trade agreement, every little bit SHOULD BE debated and given to the public for a chance to dissect. The reason it isn't is because it would be derailed - because people would fucking hate it - so it SHOULD BE DERAILED.

Jesus H Christ.

It would be derailed because we are just one of many countries involved, and each change would send the whole process back to the drawing board. No matter how good or bad the agreement is, it would never happen without fast-track authority. And, honestly, if your position is that we should never make any international agreements because there are a few provisions in one that you don't like, you're talking about using a cannon to kill a gnat.

For all the "elections don't matter" people, there's a lesson. If this issue is really important to you, vote. Base your vote on it. Our system of gov't depends on people acting as representatives of the population, and those representatives are then trusted to make certain decisions.
 
Giving fast track authority has been a mistake in the past, it's a mistake every fucking time.

This is a SERIOUS trade agreement, every little bit SHOULD BE debated and given to the public for a chance to dissect. The reason it isn't is because it would be derailed - because people would fucking hate it - so it SHOULD BE DERAILED.

Jesus H Christ.

Ummm Congress still gets to vote on the final product....

How many countries are involved in this? I think it's 11, so let's wait until 11 different legislative bodies agree on every little detail of this pact. That's very realistic.
 
Agreed. Giving the President fast-track authority not only has precedence but it ensures that every little agreement in trade negotiations isn't debated to death derailing the whole process. I get it people's concerns over the secrecy of this trade agreement and the concern over jobs but a lot of what critics claim has been either exaggerated or simply not true.

Yup. If you're against fast tracking you're basically against free trade.
 
You people are crazy with your crazy theories. First of all what do you have to say about all the politicians who VOTED AGAINST IT?

What the heck is all this doom and gloom. Far from 100% of congress 'being against the people'. And that is only if you stick to propaganda talking points. There are pro's and cons to many things this deal included. Furthermore, the fact that so many members of congress voted against this deal and took a stand is PROOF of your democracy working.
 
So who wrote up this deal anyways?
 
Giving fast track authority has been a mistake in the past, it's a mistake every fucking time.

This is a SERIOUS trade agreement, every little bit SHOULD BE debated and given to the public for a chance to dissect. The reason it isn't is because it would be derailed - because people would fucking hate it - so it SHOULD BE DERAILED.

Jesus H Christ.

All trade agreements are "SERIOUS" and the data along with most economist simply disagree with your assessment of things. While these trade agreements aren't panacea's for member countries, there is no dispute over whether or not they increase trade, create jobs, and increase economic growth. Facts are facts.
 
It would be derailed because we are just one of many countries involved, and each change would send the whole process back to the drawing board. No matter how good or bad the agreement is, it would never happen without fast-track authority. And, honestly, if your position is that we should never make any international agreements because there are a few provisions in one that you don't like, you're talking about using a cannon to kill a gnat.

For all the "elections don't matter" people, there's a lesson. If this issue is really important to you, vote. Base your vote on it. Our system of gov't depends on people acting as representatives of the population, and those representatives are then trusted to make certain decisions.

The relevant international labour bodies, international labour unions like the IBEW, United Steelworkers, Teamsters, etc could elect representatives and be invited to at least observe the negotiations and report back. They asked Clinton to let them in on NAFTA and they were ignored. They aren't invited, they aren't allowed anywhere near the proceedings, because their interests are under direct attack and they would say something about it.

There should be trade agreements respecting tariffs separate from trade agreements that deal with the rights of corporations to sue national governments and influence local labour practice and laws.

Divide it along those lines and then let the relevant parties who will be affected send their people to observe the proceedings and report back.

There could be far, FAR more transparency in this process, and there would be if any of this was actually about trade and not simply protectionist measures for corporations.
 
The relevant international labour bodies, international labour unions like the IBEW, United Steelworkers, Teamsters, etc could elect representatives and be invited to at least observe the negotiations and report back. They asked Clinton to let them in on NAFTA and they were ignored. They aren't invited, they aren't allowed anywhere near the proceedings, because their interests are under direct attack and they would say something about it.

So if you had it your way the interest of the few would supercede the interest of everyone else? That is effectively what you're saying here.

There should be trade agreements respecting tariffs separate from trade agreements that deal with the rights of corporations to sue national governments and influence local labour practice and laws.

That likelihood of that happening in the US is very low.


The Supreme Court has not ruled on this precise question. But the collective reasoning in four of its recent rulings bearing on the issue leans heavily toward a finding of unconstitutionality. The Court has placed significant limits on the ability of Congress to assign the power to decide cases traditionally handled by the courts to people other than Article III judges, even when the judicial substitutes are full-time federal officials, such as bankruptcy judges or the heads of federal agencies. Moreover, in each case in which the Court approved of a dispute being taken away from federal judges, there was judicial review at the end of the process, which is not the case with TPP. Moreover, although the Justice Department issued a lengthy opinion in 1995 on when arbitration can be used to replace court adjudication, it did not then, and has not since then, defended the constitutionality of arbitration provisions like those in the proposed TPP.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/tpp-isds-constitution/396389/
 
So who wrote up this deal anyways?

It's the product of negotiations. Probably hundreds of people have had at least some hand in it.

The relevant international labour bodies, international labour unions like the IBEW, United Steelworkers, Teamsters, etc could elect representatives and be invited to at least observe the negotiations and report back. They asked Clinton to let them in on NAFTA and they were ignored. They aren't invited, they aren't allowed anywhere near the proceedings, because their interests are under direct attack and they would say something about it.

Can't comment about NAFTA because I don't know all the details. But labor unions with a stake in the deal were allowed to view drafts of the TPP and give feedback (just as corporations were). That doesn't mean that everyone is getting all of what they want or enough to make it a good deal from their perspective--just clearing the record there.

Divide it along those lines and then let the relevant parties who will be affected send their people to observe the proceedings and report back.

Again, with the TPP, that has happened.

There could be far, FAR more transparency in this process, and there would be if any of this was actually about trade and not simply protectionist measures for corporations.

It's the exact opposite of protectionism for corporations. I think that the aspect that allows for potential undemocratic influence over policy is troubling, and the benefits are not significant, so it might be that it's not a good deal (and certainly not without the TAA--though Obama has indicated that he will not sign the TPA without the TAA).
 
Back
Top