Trans Pacific Partnership - continuing the conservative assault on working people

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Aegon Spengler, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Yup, without the need to have the US dictating orders to us the lesser people.

    Weird how these super corporations that control the world cant even deal with an orange troll who found his way in the presidency.
     
  2. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    As an example of abuse, not a medication protected by a patent. Apply that abuse to a drug that is still patent protected and then extend that patent protection for several more years. That is the concern. Weird that you’re arguing this point when you agreed with the issue just 2 pages ago.
     
  3. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    I’m not sure what you’re saying here. TPP-11 made deliberate chsnges once the US dropped out.

    https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1G50AP
     
  4. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Its not much of a concern considering the amount of treatments out there that are already off-patent, as to new treatments, rest assured it was one of my biggest reserves about the TPP but to say it extends American FDA monopolistic practices to the rest of the members i think is an exaggeration.

    So its either a country has no say or a country is dictating the terms?

    Its multilateral agreement, the US of course had a bigger word about it than say Brunei but in the end it was negotiation.
     
  5. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    It’s not an exaggeration that it would have extended patents. I don’t know what your talking about when you refer to the fda’s monopolistic practices. I think perhaps you misunderstand their role.

    Sure it was a negotiation, and when you are twice as powerful as the other countries combined you dictate where the negotiations go.
     
  6. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Its an exaggeration that the patent system would be abused to make medicine forever patented. In the end the countries themselves declare which patents go or dont.

    No, you dont, no country would accept terms that are worse than the status quo.

    Your whole twice the GDP means everybody must listen to me, its just your American hubris clouding your mind to any meaningful understanding of how the world works.
     
  7. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    who made the argument that drugs would be under patent protection forever? You should quote that guy.



    Lol at American hubris.
     
  8. VivaRevolution

    VivaRevolution Whoopin' Belt

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    You know if we made corporations illegal, and ended limited liability, I would be alot more OK, with the status quo.
     
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  9. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Shkreli is scum, but his model made money and now other pharmaceutical companies are doing the same.
    Valeant had to pay fines of $54M for fraudulent billing and > $200M for insider trading.

    Notice that the prices of daraprim and Valeant's lineup have remained the same.
     
  10. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    There.

    It is hubris to think the Japanese, Australians, New Zealanders, Mexicans, Canadians, Chileans etc, etc. Would subject themselves to American style healthcare over slightly more favorable trade conditions with America.

    Specially since some of these countries already have FTAs with America and the others are doing quite fine under WTO rules.

    You are making this out to be like the US was threatening to enforce sanctions or else.
     
  11. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    "several more years" = forever?

    And no, I never made this out like the US was threatening to enforce sanctions or else... that is all in your head.
    I like you Rod, but every conversation with you that lasts a certain length eventually exposes your anti-American bias, even when unprovoked like this conversation here.

    If 2 parties engage in negotiations, and one part is immensely more influential and less dependent on negotiations being successful, that party will dictate how the negotiation goes. In a world where free trade already essentially exists, lowering a few tariffs is inconsequential to the US relative to Peru, Chile, 'Nam, etc. So those countries are going to have to give up something to make it worth our while. In terms of the TPP is was pharma patent protection and a few other things. Of course the other countries benefitted from TPP, they're not masochists or puppets of the US, but the US dictated any aspect of that treaty that involved them. To pretend otherwise, and ignore the fact that they dropped the pharma protectionist aspects fo the treaty as soon as we left the table is just you not wanting to concede a noncontroversial point because you hate America and your machismo can't let you see this argument properly.
     
  12. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    So how many years exactly? kind of hard to have a meaningful argument when the example you use isnt even patented and when you arent giving an specific account of what would really happen for the countries involved, merely ambiguous terms.

    Well, when people start saying that America corporations are dictating the terms of how countries will manage their internal policies over slightly better favorable conditions, that speaks volumes of American hubris.

    No, the leverage that exists is far more important than the given size of a particular economy.

    Japan is doing quite well in its trade with the US, to make such drastic local changes.

    Canada and Mexico already have NAFTA with the US.

    Australia, Chile and New Zealand export valuable commodities.

    Certainly none of these countries would risk marginally increasing trade with the US at the cost of surrendering their healthcare and patent policies to US corporations.

    There is a huge gap between claiming that US corporations wrote the TPP and saying that the US had a bigger say in the negotiations.
     
  13. Trotsky

    Trotsky Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card Yellow Card Banned

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    I'm not sure why bargaining power of participant governments is at issue here instead of the fact that the deal provided robust extralegal means for multinational corporations to exploit and extort members.

    Anyways, I always really liked this interview. So prophetic.

    To be clear, this is just about NAFTA, which was very different than TPP.

     
  14. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    So the obvious conclusion is to jump to infinity...

    They dictated the terms of the TPP negotiations as they pertained to the USA. Yes.

    It all depends on what is being offered. If I have the next Amazon or Apple to offer, then the leverage is certainly reduced.
    If vietnam is offering to lift their bowling ball tariff... not a lot of leverate.

    Good for them.

    Yay!

    So adorable.

    Yet they were all signing onto a treaty that allowed pharmaceutical companies to extend their patents and cost their healthcare systems and citizens billions of dollars in the process. I can only imagine that the juice was worth the squeeze.



    The corporations did write it via their lobbyists and lawyers. There is a chart that breaks down who was involved with the negotiations and its pretty much all transnational corporations with a little bit of labor and government official sprinkled on top. I included it in this OP: http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/110557105/
     
  15. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Thats what you were implying, evergreening medicine.

    And the US dictates to the rest of the group mrite?

    More like what do you have to offer and what do i have to gain, if Apple tries to sell me an iphone X, the net worth of the company is meaningless to me, im looking instead as to what do i have to gain and what do i have to offer in return.

    In that regard the US didnt had much leverage.

    See you want a serious discussion but you ignore the points given.

    What leverage does the US had with Japan, Mexico and Canada as to enforce US draconian pharma laws into these countries?

    Billions? more like a few millions.

    https://www.health.govt.nz/news-med...ic-partnership-tpp-health-related-information

    • TPP requires a few administrative changes to PHARMAC (it will be required to consider applications within a specified period of time and offer a review mechanism). Implementing these changes is expected to involve up to $4.5 million in one-off establishment costs and $2.2 million per year in ongoing operational costs.
    • The patent term extension outcome in TPP is estimated to cost on average $1 million per year because New Zealand practices are already very efficient.
    So a couple million dollars while the New Zealand government was looking at raking a few billions in exports.


    edicines New Zealand believes signing of the TPP has potential to boost the New Zealand economy by between $2-4 billion per year, open up new markets for our exporters, and allow New Zealanders improved access to innovative and beneficial goods including medicines and vaccines.

    http://www.medicinesnz.co.nz/news/m...n-the-trans-pacific-partnership-negotiations/

    So gain a couple billions in exchange for a couple millions.


    The US private industry was advising the US policy makers on terms of private trade? how nefarious.

    Why would Japan, Canada, Mexico and other +trillion dollars economies surrender to the US over minor trade concessions? Why would Chile, Australia and New Zealand be that worried about trade when their exports are commodities and thus highly desirable?

    The only one who had no leverage was probably Vietnam.

    EDIT

    Funny thing that when someone claims the world doesnt orbits around America he gets accused of being anti-American, i like America, but you guys have such hubris even after almost 3 decades since the Cold war ended.

    Trump cant even get Mexico to pay for the wall, but Obama had forced Japan, Australia, Chile, Mexico, Canada, etc. to adopt their shitty for-profit healthcare system? sure buddy.
     
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  16. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Nope.


    Yup

    If you say so

    Because they’re arbitrary. This stopped being a legit conversation when you started misrepresenting my posts and turning this into you vs American imperialism.

    They would have had the TPP



    that’s administrative costs. Extending a patent for 5 years will enrich them by billions.


    So theyve determined the juice is worth the squeeze. Good in them.



    How naive.

    You don’t think countries had to make concessions? Then why negotiate at all. Why not draft the “everybody wins equally trade agreement” and call it a day.

    And yet they must have benefited right? Or why participate? But they got dictated to. They’re chip was probably low cost labor so they could absorb manufacturing.

    Funny thing is nobody was talking about America in a glorifying way but your bitterness just naturally surfaced and ruined this conversation
     
  17. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Give a timeframe then.

    Hubris.

    Its reality, nobody takes a deal that its worse than the status quo.

    Uh? how can i be anti-imperialist when i am denying the US was forcing the other countries to do its bidding? its the opposite of being anti-imperialist.

    No, they wouldnt, i already provided evidence from New Zealand.

    The article says 1 million in costs due to patent extension.

    Because the actualy squeeze is not what you think it is.

    Sure US corporations control Japan. *eyes roll*

    Everybody wins something, otherwise why be there at all.

    Its called a negotiation.

    Actually you are, you are claiming that the CPTPP is meaningless because it doesnt has America and that the TPP was drafted by US corporations.
     
  18. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    I’ve read up to 20 year patent extensions



    Inferiority complex



    nobody suggested they would. You made that up in your head.



    is it?



    tpp would have forced all signatories to enforce the patent extensions.



    Those are administrative and regulatory costs to regulate the patent extension protections.



    :rolleyes:

    Nobody even suggested such a thing. Eye roll indeed...



    Now you’re catching on.

    Exactly.


    This is only true when interpreted through your Mexican inferiority complex.
    I am not saying that. I never even suggested that.

    In fact, I said the I think TPP11 was better for the countries without America and it’s protectionist chapters. Now if the US wants to join it has to adopt what’s already agreed upon.
     
  19. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    <Huh2>

    You do realize that TPP countries to enforce patents already right? And you do realize that the patent protection of Mexico and Japan are already 20 years right?

    [​IMG]

    You literally said that the TPP was drawn by American corporations, instead of saying the US position was negotiated by American corporations.

    Which is something most of the TPP countries already do.

    You said the TPP was made by US corporations and would enforce US draconian healthcare laws into the signatory countries.

    ???

    But you did, you claimed the TPP was written by nefarious US corporations when they were on advisory role to the US government only.

    No, read it again, its the extra costs for the patents, and it says that the cost is going to be small because NZ already has strong patent protection systems. So does Mexico and most countries out there.

    There is a reason why US citizens can buy medicines in Mexico and Canada (as long as its personal use) its because the US recognizes that these countries have strict pharmaceutical regulations in place.

    You using daraprim as your "evidence" showed that you clearly didnt knew what you were talking about.

    The exact same patent protected medicine costs a fraction in Mexico than the US counterpart.

    My wife was using birth control patches and she needed to buy one on her trip to San Diego, it was 70 USD + doctor's prescription for it, in Mexico it was like 20 USD OTC, the exact same brand.
     
  20. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    . Patent EXTENSION. Jfc man. Your arguing against the very same thing you agreed with me when this thread got rebooted.


    AS IT PERTAINS TO THE US. you keep forgetting that part. I never suggested that these countries were going to be our serfs.

    No. See above. Also see that these chapters have been dropped in the transition from TPP to TPP11. Also see how you agreed with me on this point when the thread was bumped.

    As it pertains to aspects of the treaty the US is involved in. And even then I didn’t compare it to prima nocta. The tpp, as it pertains to the us related aspect of it was a blow job to transnational corporations. It’s not a blow job for America, but while every country will seemingly benefit, you can guarantee then US was going to benefit more. Because leverage, not some sort of hubris.

    and for anything that pertained to the us that is true. That doesn’t mean the other countries get nothing or stolen from, they just don’t get as much as the US based companies.



    if you think extending the patent on a drug for 20 years will only cost an additional $20M then you’re off your rocker.

    You’re right, there is a reason for that and it has nothing to do with the patent extension proposed in tpp.

    Now you can fuck right off. I never used daraprim as evidence, I used it as an example of Price gouging abuse. Seeing as daraprim is a borderline orphan drug it is a real life example of the type of price gouging that a PharmA company with patent protection can employ. And I explained that, so for you to try and use it as a trump card card at this stage is bullshit. You’re either not reading my replies or your a fucking liar.

    No. the same kind of patent protection does not exist in Mexico. The closest is Canada, and even they project that the extensions were taking about would cost them around $1B per drug.

    And the patent protections were projected to raise costs of drugs all over the world. Obviously the Vietnamese aren’t paying $70 but they’d pay closer to their COL eqivalent.
     

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