Trans Pacific Partnership - continuing the conservative assault on working people

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Aegon Spengler, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    And of course that is because China was able to make such economic leaps and bounds from '01 to '16.
    Brunei and Vietnam (even Chile and Peru) could have benefited from a similar process.
     
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  2. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Chile is more developed than China though and Peru's currency went through a process of devaluations and it didnt helped them.

    Its more than simply devaluing your currency, you need a lot of discipline and a national plan.

    Brunei's currency is pegged to the Singapor dollar so its not like they are suffering for it.
     
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  3. MaxMMA

    MaxMMA Purple Belt

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    Thought this was a thread about working class transexuals.
     
  4. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    hiya Anung Un Rama,

    the TPP wasn't supposed to result in a sea change, Anuung. the change would have been incremental - probably not something you or i would notice (not like a big, grand, gesture, like threatening South Korea and Chile with tariffs).

    also, IP protection is IP protection. it doesn't matter if a corporation gets it or a small start up gets it.

    the recent trade pact that was struck actually removed all of the IP provisions, since none of the other nations really benefit from it. one of the real edges our country has its innovative skills, you know? i know you really dislike US based biotech and pharma companies, but i still don't get why you want to blunt that edge, Anuung.

    Anuung, what is that you're worried about being compromised on? why don't you take a fair look at how ISDS has worked under NAFTA? if i'm not mistaken, the US is batting a thousand - though Canada isn't faring so well. take a look at how the US has fared in the WTO; the US has won 86% of its cases.

    our sovereignty is not being compromised.

    all that's happening is the trade agreement is moving forward. there's word out of Beijing that Xi Jinping is considering joining the pact. as that trade alliance fortifies itself, other nations will consider joining it.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

    - IGIT
     
  5. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Hola IGs,

    Can't respond in full right now, gotta catch some zzz's, but a few things:

    The TPP is was supposed to be essential for the USA economy and the projections I saw, which were extended to 2030, were considered inconsequential.

    And, yeah, I saw that China is being invited to join the TPP. Apparently this isn't the China vaccine the treaty was promoted to be....

    Now, if IP protection is so indiscriminate then maybe some nuance should be considered before we prevent countries from being able to make life saving medications available to their citizens.

    86% ≠ 1.000

    Nighty night,
    Rama
     
  6. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    hi and good morning Anuung Un Rama,

    i'd like to see those projections. i believe you saw them, but i'd like to see them too and i'd be curious to see the methodology involved.

    the TPP, at least as far as any analysis i read on it, was supposed to incrementally increase the fruits of trade with our partners. economically, that's it. it wasn't supposed to change the planet or anything like that.

    the trade agreement wasn't going to turn China into an economic wasteland. the US is going to be rivals with China, economically, for quite some time to come. think of it as a business alliance, Anuung. the NAFTA signatories along with several Pacific Rim countries were making a business alliance.

    its not sinister.

    its also not surprising that in Beijing they were high fiving one another when the US dropped out. i think its natural that they'd want in, and i think US interests will be marginalized.

    not destroyed, marginalized a bit. kind of like the TPP but in reverse.

    you could have congress pass a law making it illegal for certain industries to make anything more than "X" amount of profits and single out pharma and biotech. i don't think there is much chance of that happening - but that seems to be what you'd like to see. IP protection in that field incentivizes innovation, but of course much of that is in the service of the bottom line. you want to limit this bottom line.

    you'd also have to explain to researchers hoping to strike gold (they strike out alot too, Anuung. pharma and biotech companies go bust all the time) that IP protections aren't necessary to foster innovation. from the people i know who work in the field, that's going to be a difficult conversation.

    if you include conterfeiting, IP infringement in the arts alone already costs the US over 300 billion dollars per year. that's enough money to send 30 million americans to college, man. if you erode IP in tech, along with pharma/biotech, you're talking about an additional exodus of money from our country. (i think it would be fascinating to see this applied to gun manufacturers. guns, afterall, are an absolutely vital part of being an American to so many in this country, right? maybe we should strike patents that the gun manufacturers hold)

    i'm bummed we don't see eye to eye on this one, my friend.

    - IGIT
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  7. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Ohayōgozaimasu, IGIT-san,

    Here are the projections:.
    Then why was it so important? It was promoted as being essential. If the best case scenario is insignificant then its not. And then you have to consider what happens if the best case scenario doesn't pan out. The fact of the matter is that free trade already exists, and that this deal was only important to transcontinental corporations. The writing on the wall is the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

    Nobody argued that China was going to be turned into an economic wasteland... But it was promoted as keeping China in check.
    Why think of it as a business alliance when we already have business alliances with these businesses? And if China can independently produce the same exact business alliances or even join this one, what is the intrinsic value of such an agreement?

    Then why was is negotiated in secret? Why were politicians not allowed to discuss its contents while transnational corporations lawyers and lobbyists were allowed access? Why did the promotors of the bill lie about its importance?

    Pics of Chinese high fives?
    The new TPP doesn't prevent the US from joining. And there are still IP protections built into it. If the US gets marginalized then "we" have nobody to blame but ourselves and the TPP wouldn't have prevented it from happening. If anything, the idea that this marginalizes the US is as hyperbolic as the original marginalizing China.

    <Fedor23>

    Boo fucking hoo. Restaurants go bust, too. Should the TPP protect them? Should they be allowed to jack up the cost of food 5,000%?
    Those pharma start ups may go bust but only after spending millions of dollars invested by poor little millionaires and hedge funds.

    Right. Because if we stopped art IP infringement, the US would send 30 million Americans to college... We already have that money and we gave it to Trump and the MIC. Its weird that you we can shit on currency manipulation concerns because it hasn't been going on the past 2 years after costing the US 3 million jobs and probably over $1T over the previous 16 years, but can appeal to some mythological altruism.

    I'd like to see some data on how much stolen art is costing the US. I'm not sure counterfeit NFL jerseys are going to pull on my heart strings as much as affordable antibiotics, but lets see what happens.

    - Anung
     
  8. SaiWa

    SaiWa Brown Belt

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    it can be. just enlighten us with your experience with them!
     
  9. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    IGGY,

    I think these quotes were added in last night? I remember reading them elsewhere.
    I agree with the concerns they represent, but they are more Trump related concerns that TPP related concerns.

    -AUR
     
  10. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    hi Anuung!

    thanks for the thought out response.

    i have to head out now, i'll write more later. i just caught this bit at the top so i'll give you my take on it;

    at its highest levels, in all things in life, its about grinding out tiny percentages.

    i competed in sports while i was in college (swimming). you'd fall over laughing if i told you the absurd lengths i went to shave a few tenths of a second off of my times. there were races where it came down a fraction of a fraction of a second.

    i have friends who are day traders and their lives are basically about getting a point or two and getting out.

    i want to read the rest of your post later when i've the time, because i like to read your posts here my friend, but in the end we're still going to disagree, i know it.

    i'd happily concede that the TPP was indeed only meant to make tiny (positive) adjustments in trade for US based interests and it still wouldn't matter to you. you'll just move on to the next thing (i don't mean for you take that in an insulting way. i believe that, on a cellular level, you're just opposed to the TPP and nothing is going to change your mind).

    be back later.

    - IGIT
     
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  11. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    We shit on currency manipulation because as far as i know, no country has ever de-floated a currency. Once that genie is out of the bottle it cannot be put back inside.

    Currently only Vietnam lacks a floating currency, the rest of the countries dont and the notion that these countries will intentionally devalue their currencies and risking the stability of their internal markets over a marginal advantage in terms of exports is ridiculous to say the least.
     
  12. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Thats interesting. I've looked into currency manipulation a lot and haven't read any correlation between it and floating currency.
    I just did a google search and nothing I was able to find gave me any conclusive insight. Can you recommend something to read on the subject?
     
  13. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_exchange_rate

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_exchange-rate_system

    Wiki is good enough.

    Currency manipulation is good for rapid industrialization in authoritarian countries, but not really something a real developed economy would even consider.
     
  14. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    I've already read the floating exchange link and I've read conflicting information in other links.
    The fixed exchange link seems meatier; I'll give that a gander and offer a rebuttal if I have one. Gracias.
     
  15. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    The thing is that manipulating a currency isnt easy, nor its effects without drawbacks.

    Not to mention that there are costs that are kept constant despite devaluations, specially in countries with little natural resources.
     
  16. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    ahoy Anuung, avast ye!

    the projections have US exports moving up a full percent. real income would go up 57 billion (more on this later). like i said, incremental improvement for US based business interests.

    if you're objecting to the grand language used in promoting the TPP, i don't know what to say. anyone even mildly curious about the trade deal could just read about it. if an economic illiterate like me can make sense of it, anyone can.

    i was expecting it to be a net postive. it is just that. i am happy.

    its not that complicated.

    "business alliance" and "geopoitical interests" are not mutually exclusive terms, Anuung. the TPP serves both.
    i'm unclear on where you're even going with this, to be honest. are you saying you would like the TPP to have been more explicit in its thrust to disable China economically?

    Anuung my friend, everything is negotiated "in secret". even legislation that you like. its all done that way - particularly multilateral trade deals, where each nation is of course trying to maximize their side of the pie. its natural and normal.

    i wasn't speaking literally. China, for obvious reasons, is glad the US pulled out of the TPP.

    that kind of sweeping assertion is not a point i'm willing to concede to you, just because you say its so.

    when a restaurant discovers a statin drug that lowers cholesterol and lengthens the life of mankind, you make sure to get back to me on that one.

    i like to eat out as much as anyone, but your comparison seems kind of silly to me.

    i'm glad you raised that point, Anuung.

    this is the core of our disagreement - and i think it holds true for most of the people who actually have policy problems with the TPP.

    alot of folks are angry that the TPP will probably end up enriching a select few oligarchs in this country. you probably know in your heart of hearts that, yes, this will be beneficial to US corporate interests - you're just ticked off that every time any cream rises, the wealthy swoop in and scoop it all up.

    the problem isn't free trade. the problem isn't globalism. the problem is the fruits from free trade and globalism are coalescing at the top - so the issue is tax policy.

    the issue is income inequality - a real problem in this country. i mean, where does that 57 billion i referenced early go, exactly? who gets it?

    the issue is wealth inequality - which has gotten insane in the United States. our wealth gap (net worth as opposed to income) is worse than Russia. its worse than Iran. that is seriously fucked up.

    taking away globalism and the TPP isn't going to address these issues - it just pointlessly kneecaps US corporations a bit and that's not going to help workers at those US based interests at all.

    the TPP isn't a problem.

    its tax policy.


    what do you care if a US corporation is able to strike favorable trade deals that enriches it - so long as that largesse doesn't all end up in some zillionaire's pocket?
    what if that money was used to help fund a single payor program? what if that money is funneled towards PEW scholarships?
    what if that money is used to help buttress our senior entitlement programs (since these programs are about to eviscerate the US budget)?

    you're fighting the wrong fight.

    - IGIT
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  17. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    This, so much this.

    This is something i argued with @VivaRevolution before but ill do it again for @Anung Un Rama.

    Economy, a word that encompasses mosts of the fears and doubts of the modern developed world citizen, it has become the most pressing issue of our days now that we live in a world of abundance and wealth.

    The very word says it all Eco from Oikos (household) and nomy from nemein (manage), in the end the economy is the managing of the household finances and it extends from the household to the nation.

    Ill give an analogy of a married couple.

    Steve and Laura are a married couple they have a joint income of USD$100,000 (GDP) Steve is an engineer and makes USD$60,000 and Laura is a teacher makes $40,000. Now Steve gets a job offer in another city (globalization), the job will pay $80,000 but Laura would only find jobs that pay $30,000.

    Now in mere economic terms it does makes sense for Steve to get the job, even if Laura earns less the household income would improve by a good margin (GDP growth 20%).

    But Laura wants some financial independence, so they strike a deal, Steve which is now the higher earner will pay more of the household costs (progressive taxation) and thus Laura will see the benefits of the increased household income.

    But when we extrapolate that to the nation, for some reason talking about progressive taxation as a solution to the economy failing to lift all boats is not seen as a valid argument.
     
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  18. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    heya there Rod1,

    your analogy holds true, and the part that i quoted above - that's it right there.

    that's the fight that needs to be fought, and its the fight worth expending political capital on.

    - IGIT
     
  19. VivaRevolution

    VivaRevolution Whoopin' Belt

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    Neither you or @IGIT, have addressed the fundamental problem in labor created by these trade deals.

    The leverage of the worker was built on withholding labor.

    What good does that do, when a free trade deal increases the labor supply by orders of magnitude?

    What good is full employment in the US, when that doesn't create leverage for workers?

    You point to progressive taxation as the band aid to address the destruction of labor's leverage, but you offer no rational for why these trade deals can t be written in a way that doesn't destroy labor's leverage.

    It seems to me to be a false dichotomy. That my choice is no access to other markets, or the destruction of labor's leverage compensated by progressive taxation.

    I reject this. I say we can have free trade that rewards higher wages, and better regulatory practices.
     
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  20. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Do you reject automation too?

    Nonetheless i did address your point. Why isnt labor which cant be outsourced also losing this batte?

    You said you dont know. But thats not really an answer. Most jobs out there cant be outsourced.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018

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