Training specifically to pull guard in tournaments

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Thycidides, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    I have a hard time successfully pulling guard when I compete, and as a result have spent the last couple months working on drilling that specific move. However, none of my other team mates seem to have this problem and I haven't seen much discussion of it here. Is this a problem unique to me or do others have It too?
     
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  2. ArtemV Red Belt

    ArtemV
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    Please just learn a takedown... a standard double leg is probably easier than pulling guard lmao
     
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  3. SummerStriker Black Belt

    SummerStriker
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    @goatfury had a good article about it: https://howtheyplay.com/individual-sports/Attacking-From-the-Guard-Pull-in-BJJ
     
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  4. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    that's kinda disconcerting though dude. isn't the whole idea behind pulling guard that your subs/sweeps are inherently superior to someone's top game and puts you in a better position to score points, or at least a way for you to keep them from mounting?

    if you're not confident in your guard game being *that* much better than your opponents' it doesn't seem to make much sense to pull since you're basically conceding position from the get-go?

    plus like, if they're already able to stuff your attempts to pull guard, doesn't that mean they're either throwing or passing you before you get a guard locked in?
     
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  5. yetanother Purple Belt

    yetanother
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    I wouldn't say a strong guard position is inferior to guard top in an IBJJF gi context.
     
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  6. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    because of the potential advantages from offense?

    like if someone throws successfully, lands in and proceeds to pass the guard, then gains mount isn't that 2 + 3 + 4?

    versus if someone pulls guard and sweeps to mount, isn't that 2 + 4?
     
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  7. jct White Belt

    jct
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    Not really a fair comparison. Sweeps rarely land in mount. Most of the time, the sweeper needs to pass the guard too, which would be the same as a thrower needing to pass the guard. While throws and takedowns would hardly ever end up in mount, they probably end up outside of the guard just as often as a sweep.
     
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  8. lechien Gold Belt

    lechien
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    Actually, there were some stats at ibjjf worlds that showed that people that were pulling guard and sweeping were winning more. Mind you it was at black belt level.

    But I agree with you: having a good tachi waza is must.
     
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  9. lechien Gold Belt

    lechien
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    First you need to decide which way you pull guard.

    I recommend sliding to your left if you have control of his right sleeve and your right hand is controlling his lapel.

    Then plant you left foot on his hip and pull guard.

    Make sure he does not grab your pants or attempt a throw as you attempt to pull guard as you would give up 2 points.

    I know AOJ teach to pull guard the other way but I still think you need to control the hand on the same side that you put your foot on the hip otherwise it us too easy for him or her to block to intercept the foot before your foot connect the hip and you are oulkibg side control instead.
     
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  10. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    that's really interesting! i wonder if they just assume it's safer to work from guard than risk losing 2 points and position from being taken down?

    Dirty Holt said this a while ago:

    which was kinda surprising, but makes sense in that context.
     
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  11. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    I guess what im trying to say here is successfully pulling guard is harder than I thought. Just getting the right grips requires some effort.
     
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  12. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    All rule sets are a structure of incentives that reward certain trends of behavior.

    In an IBJJF rules tournament, pulling guard is a winning strategy.

    By pulling guard, the rules allow a competitor to avoid possibility for another competitor to score points on him with a takedown, regardless that the resulting situation is the same, giving them a 'safety zone' from which they can attempt to score with a sweep with relative impunity.

    If you are an IBJJF competition focused school, like AOJ for instance, and people are joining your school for the purpose of doing well in competition, you could say the instructors there in fact have a duty to teach the best adapted strategies for the competition. In that sense, not teaching guard-pull based gameplans could in fact be seen as negligent to their students.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  13. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Yes my coaches do teach a guard based game plan. In fact they have specifically told me to do so and have spent time showing me what to do,

    But I'm the only one that drills the entry to the position. My team mates spend their drill time on more complex sweeps and submissions, even the other white belts.

    I don't know if I'm ahead of the curve by practicing a basic move instead of something more fancy or behind it.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  14. goatfury Brown Belt

    goatfury
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  15. trustdoesntrust Green Belt

    trustdoesntrust
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    a frequent problem I see with guard pulling is not fully appreciating that guard pulling is a grappling move and thus should be approached with the goal of technical precision. So, definitely make sure you know exactly what grips you want and how and when you want to pull. Also, you must have a plan for when you hit the ground, especially a guard retention sequence if your opponent reacts aggressively?
     
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  16. trustdoesntrust Green Belt

    trustdoesntrust
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    Absolutely. All things being equal, the top guy in an IBJJF match can only score by completing a dominant move (pass or back take), whereas the bottom guy can score with less difficulty (sweep into a neutral position). Further, the top guy must risk losing position, and the points that go with it, if he attacks a submission and ends up on bottom afterward. The bottom guy also has the tempo advantage.
     
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  17. ngarauru nga ariki o nga kahui maunga

    ngarauru
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    #17
  18. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    There is an art to pulling guard successfully. Basically, your guard pull should immediately set up your sweep. What open guard are you trying to get to and what sweep do you want to hit?
     
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  19. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Well right now my coaches want me to focus on getting to closed guard safely and to avoid being taken down or passed in the transition from standing to ground. The are taking a very slow approach so far. However, I have been able to hit the lucas Liete Half guard sweep in rolling pretty consistently.

    Its kind of odd, because in rolling I am pretty successful with that half guard sweep but they don't want me to try that in a tournament just yet.
     
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  20. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    Jumping closed guard is risky. It's a good way to get hurt, especially at lower levels. If you want to get to closed guard. I think the easiest way is to get a same side collar and sleeve grip, put your opposite foot in his abdomen, sit down while push/pulling, and right as you hit the ground let you foot slide off his stomach and pull him forward into closed guard. If he sits down on the pull and you can't pull him forward, you can transition immediately to DLR with very strong collar + sleeve grips.

    Not sure why your coaches wouldn't want you to use a guard that's working for you in the gym. Pulling to half guard with a collar drag looking to immediately come up on a single is a very viable method of pulling.
     
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