Tips on randori with a wrestler

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by dudeguyman, Mar 29, 2018.

  1. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,309
    Likes Received:
    174
    I also had a rude awakening going against good wrestlers. I think the crux of the problem (even with gi) is that you never get to use the sleeve the same way versus an upright judoka. No gi obviously not, but less obvious with gi is that the bent and often reverse stance of wrestlers prevent you from rotating uke. Next, their instinct is to drop their weight. Lastly, IMO a judoka has to accomplish a lot more to lift and flip someone versus a takedown. It's really really hard to throw someone who is already halfway to the ground. Take that further and you'd be asking a judoka to throw someone sitting down.

    The classic Japanese style Judo would tell you to push down on uke before pulling up, action reaction. I think that is okay in Judo but an arms race versus a wrestler, who will declare victory if you screw up and get taken down as a result.

    There are things that lend themselves vs. bent stances, like belt grips and some sacrifices, but even those will only take you so far without core skill. I think the long term solution is learning to adapt to different grips while making kuzushi without relying on the classic gi pull. That could be ashiwaza, adapted wrestling setups like snapdowns, unorthodox grips or wrestling tie-ups, grip-and-throw or single grip throw moves. Basically stuff that is also in Judo but perhaps you have to be pretty good already.

    On that note, I often like showing things no-gi because it cuts straight to the point on how techniques should work. You don't have added complexity or additional levers to compensate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
    TroldeAnsigt likes this.
  2. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,309
    Likes Received:
    174
    It was also suggest to me to get action-reaction by dragging uke around, basically shuffling around while upright using my grips as a hook, which is harder on the wrestler since he's bent. Eventually you'd get an opening.

    That also seems like a good idea but I haven't tried it yet. I know people who do that well in Judo have tremendous skill (harder than it's described here). You feel like you're struggling to stand while they are just dancing around, and it's not power/pressure that's doing it.
     
  3. nefti

    nefti Red Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Messages:
    8,468
    Likes Received:
    974
    If you want to see how judo type throws can be utilized against an opponent in a wrestling stance, go watch sambo matches.
     
    dudeguyman likes this.
  4. Mcmoon

    Mcmoon Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    81
    We have some wrestlers in my gym and I have had decent success with Sasae. I have also used te garuma (against them it is normally a spin while dragging the lapel rather than an actual pick up and they end up in turtle / almost just a collar drag) and a combo of osoto gari to kata garuma with the kata garuma on the lapel side.
     
  5. judoka loca

    judoka loca Training to eventually grapple a bear

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    28
    Up up, down down, left right left right BA start

    No seriously though, Judo has a handful of throws meant specifically for countering wrestlers... and kickboxers, and boxers, bigger people, smaller people...

    As a rule of thumb, don't play his game. Defend your legs and don't let him control you. If you want to attack, what comes to mind from me is: pull him forward and as soon as you see him flinch back, even if just a little, rush his ass and stick him with a kouchi makikomi (inner thigh wraparound) or an osoto gari. Land on him and work for a submission, don't let him ride you.

    Good luck!
     
  6. jr jr

    jr jr Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,528
    Likes Received:
    231
    Sasae is supper effective. Sumi Gaeshi works. My go to however is snap down in the gi. Once you get the grip over the back (or even the lapel) if his head gets below mine I am going to plant his nose in the mat. It takes full commitment. With that said, I believe all judo takes commitment to be effective against someone with rooted base.
     
    judoka loca and selfcritical like this.
  7. jr jr

    jr jr Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,528
    Likes Received:
    231
    Oh yeah, collar drag works well too.
     
  8. Rebelfett

    Rebelfett Likebot

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    11,548
    Location:
    On dat like button
    I miss @Einarr
    <DCrying>
    <mma1>
     
    j123 likes this.
  9. dudeguyman

    dudeguyman Kosen Ju-Jitsu

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    706
    Location:
    minneapolis, minnesota
    [​IMG]
     
  10. dudeguyman

    dudeguyman Kosen Ju-Jitsu

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    706
    Location:
    minneapolis, minnesota
    Yeah. He is just better then me frankly. I haven't tried it on him yet but I've been practicing pinning guys to a wall to stand them up like in MMA fights. I just need tips to stand him up, and I will be looking into special counters for this guy as well.
     
  11. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,767
    Likes Received:
    2,029
    How would you hypothetically pin me a wrestler against the wall? And then how would you do anything if you are getting beat in the ties and hand fighting
     
  12. dudeguyman

    dudeguyman Kosen Ju-Jitsu

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    706
    Location:
    minneapolis, minnesota
    Well obviously I can t do shit if they're significantly better than me. But against some lower level guys I either push them straight back or spin them into the wall.
     
  13. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,767
    Likes Received:
    2,029
    You are asking how to beat him.. we’re not talking about beating lower level people. My overall point.. is regardless of tactics you have to get better at wrestling
     
  14. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,554
    Likes Received:
    2,672
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    To be fair having a specific target or objective to work towards is a good way to keep your training coherently focused and tell how you're progressing.
     
  15. dudeguyman

    dudeguyman Kosen Ju-Jitsu

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    706
    Location:
    minneapolis, minnesota
    I'm working on it. In the meantime though, do you have any advice?
     
  16. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,554
    Likes Received:
    2,672
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Train more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
    TroldeAnsigt likes this.
  17. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,767
    Likes Received:
    2,029
    Don’t disagree, but one must always understand the base problem and be honest about how to address it.
     
  18. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,767
    Likes Received:
    2,029
    What positions are you getting beat
     
  19. Turismo

    Turismo Green Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    155
    I'd love to give some useful advice but the truth is that the only wrestler at my club I've never, ever been able to take down. Despite having done judo for longer and weighing more. Literally and i'm not kidding when i say this. I've never seen anyone, ever take him down. He did say though that he feels lost whenever someone has his tsurite sleeve pinned down low towards the hip where he can't grip. Maybe that'll help. Or it won't..
     
  20. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,554
    Likes Received:
    2,672
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    More examples of collar whipping.

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018

Share This Page