Tim Sylvia fun fact

Credentials-wise, maybe not, but stylistically, in the context of an MMA match-up, they both present Tim with identical threats, namely takedowns. Neither one poses any threat to Tim on the feet, and on the ground, Monson is actually the more dangerous opponent due to his submission pedigree. Hell, with Tim's guard and his reach/length, even if Brock did manage to put Tim on his back, Tim could've very well ended up triangling or ambarring him, as his submission game was solid and his guard work, both offensive and defensive, was always on point.

Even talking about a fight where he was almost completely dominated, when Tim had Randy in his guard, he not only reduced Randy's offense to virtually nothing with his reach and his grip, he also landed a number of good punches and elbows from off his back and threatened Randy on more than one occasion with submissions.

In short, Tim Sylvia is not Mark Hunt. Even assuming that Brock would've been able to get Tim to the ground - which is a hell of an assumption - his troubles wouldn't have been over by any means.



True, which is why, if we're talking about Brock/Tim in say 2008, then I have a much easier time seeing Brock's speed and explosiveness potentially allowing him to get in on Tim and put him on his back. But even in decline Tim still would've presented a significant physical and stylistic challenge for Brock, and, though I wouldn't have been surprised to see Brock win, I still would've given Tim the advantage and picked him to win.

If, on the other hand, we're going full fantasy match-up and we're talking about Brock stepping into the cage against prime Tim, the Tim that used Cabbage's head as a speed bag and made Ricco look like he never wrestled a day in his life, then not only does Brock not land a single TD, he probably doesn't even survive to the cards.



You honestly think Brock would've - could've - followed that blueprint? The guy who'd flinch and tuck tail every time someone would flick a jab at him? If you think Brock's going to step in and outstrike Tim Sylvia, then you're either failing to give Randy's striking ability the credit it deserves or you're vastly overrating Brock's striking ability. Either way, this blueprint argument is irrelevant in Brock's case because at no point in his MMA career did he ever have the skill set needed to put a plan like that into action.



@acannxr already explained the problem with your Carwin point. As for Hunt, you think because Brock was able to take down and control a guy with nonexistent TDD who's half a foot shorter than him that he would've been able to take down and control a guy with fantastic TDD who's half a foot taller than him?



And what bias would that be? Pro-Tim bias, anti-Brock bias, or both? I'm just curious in what direction you think I'm biased.

In all honesty, I don't have a dog in this fight. It's true that I give Tim more credit than most on here (which means: I give him the credit that he deserves), but there's only one person who's ever posted on Sherdog who you could accurately level a pro-Tim bias accusation against and be justified, and I'm not that person. As for Brock, I'm far from a Brock hater. I wanted Randy to pull off the win, but I rooted for Brock against every other opponent he faced. I was supremely impressed by his obliteration of Frank Mir in their rematch, was thrilled to see him stage the comeback against Carwin, and hated seeing him fall to Cain and Overeem the way he did.

No matter the angle, there's no bias. I just genuinely believe that Tim's physical attributes and his brand of sprawl-and-brawl would've presented Brock with a huge - and, IMHO, insurmountable - challenge.

The bottom line: I think you're vastly overrating Tim's TDD and overrating the striking game of a 40+ year old Randy. As for Randy catching Tim at the beginning of the fight and knocking him down, Brock did the same thing to Mir and Heath Herring. Brock just did it more explosively. It threw off Herring, as I suspect it would Sylvia. And Brock and Randy actually fought and traded punches..remind me how that ended?

Hunt's TDD isn't "non existent" either. It was when he first started MMA and had a major losing streak, but improved over time with the rest of his game. He was also very powerful with a low center of gravity...if you know basic physics, you'll realize that alone makes him much harder to take down than a tall, lanky, skinny-fat guy like Tim.

That's all I got....more important things to do. If you want the last word, have at it, dude.
 
If you want the last word, have at it, dude.

Gladly ;)

Brock and Randy actually fought and traded punches..remind me how that ended?

MMAth? That's what this conversation has devolved to? Perhaps it's best that this is the last word. Still, it's worth pointing out that it's not about who did better against Randy, Brock or Tim. It's about who would do better, Brock versus Tim. And, as I've said, Tim would've presented Brock with a serious physical and stylistic challenge. Only twice in his entire career did Brock fight legit strikers and both times he lost. And only once did he fight a striker who had the height/reach advantage on him, and, again, he lost.

There just isn't evidence to support the claim that Brock would've easily mauled Tim.

Hunt's TDD isn't "non existent" either.

Excluding his fight with TK in the OWGP, how many times do you think Mark Hunt has successfully sprawled on a TD attempt in his entire MMA career? If I needed more than the fingers of one hand to tally that number up, well, let's just say that I'd be surprised. And I love Mark Hunt, so I hate having to shit on his game like this, but come on, man. Let's not pretend that Tim and Hunt are anywhere near the same level when it comes to sprawling-and-brawling.

He was also very powerful with a low center of gravity...if you know basic physics, you'll realize that alone makes him much harder to take down than a tall, lanky, skinny-fat guy like Tim.

You can keep your high school physics. I'll take watching Barnett bowl over Hunt in a nanosecond and Randy having to struggle like his life depended on it to suck out the single on Tim up against the fence - to say nothing of the rest of their careers, which includes a 200 pound Wanderlei absolutely having his way with Hunt - and judge Tim to be MUCH harder to take down.
 
As far as TDs and wresting go, Monson and Lesnar aren't comparable. Plus Tim was already declining by that point, and Randy gave Brock a great blueprint to beat Sylvia. If Brock can beat Carwin (FAR better TD and more powerful striking than Tim) and Mark Hunt, he can take Sylvia. To say otherwise is just showing your bias.
Though he was a good MMA wrestler, Monson should've been a much better wrestler in MMA than he turned out to be. He has pretty stellar wrestling credentials and obviously a ton of grappling credentials. I think he suffered from being a little too slow for LHW and a little over-muscled and undersized at HW.
 
just amazing how fedor cleaner the floor with him. seems his power has diminished quite a lot over the years.
Yeah, and the way he put him in the exact same position that Randy had him in, but finished him immediately with a modified version of the rear-naked. That's when I realized Fedor was a different kind of fighter.
 
I truly believe that if Sylvia stayed in shape and didn't burn bridges, he would of been one of the greats.
I like Sylvia & would’ve loved to have seen him become great. I just don’t think he had the speed to be great
 
Though he was a good MMA wrestler, Monson should've been a much better wrestler in MMA than he turned out to be. He has pretty stellar wrestling credentials and obviously a ton of grappling credentials. I think he suffered from being a little too slow for LHW and a little over-muscled and undersized at HW.

Yep. Barnett, Roy Nelson and other guys who didn't even wrestle in college outwrestled him. While I never saw the fight, I was always surprised he lost to a young Forrest Griffin as well. Even an old Dan Severn held Forrest down and won a sleep-inducing LnP decision.
 
Gladly ;)



MMAth? That's what this conversation has devolved to? Perhaps it's best that this is the last word. Still, it's worth pointing out that it's not about who did better against Randy, Brock or Tim. It's about who would do better, Brock versus Tim. And, as I've said, Tim would've presented Brock with a serious physical and stylistic challenge. Only twice in his entire career did Brock fight legit strikers and both times he lost. And only once did he fight a striker who had the height/reach advantage on him, and, again, he lost.

There just isn't evidence to support the claim that Brock would've easily mauled Tim.



Excluding his fight with TK in the OWGP, how many times do you think Mark Hunt has successfully sprawled on a TD attempt in his entire MMA career? If I needed more than the fingers of one hand to tally that number up, well, let's just say that I'd be surprised. And I love Mark Hunt, so I hate having to shit on his game like this, but come on, man. Let's not pretend that Tim and Hunt are anywhere near the same level when it comes to sprawling-and-brawling.



You can keep your high school physics. I'll take watching Barnett bowl over Hunt in a nanosecond and Randy having to struggle like his life depended on it to suck out the single on Tim up against the fence - to say nothing of the rest of their careers, which includes a 200 pound Wanderlei absolutely having his way with Hunt - and judge Tim to be MUCH harder to take down.

One word: sophistry. I see you're an academic so I'm not surprised. Just change your name...Steve McQueen must be spinning in his grave!
 
One word: sophistry.

I was wondering if you were actually going to be true to your word and let me have the last word. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt.

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I see you're an academic so I'm not surprised.

And I see by your sig that you're an MMAthematician, so I guess neither one of us is surprised.

Just change your name...Steve McQueen must be spinning in his grave!

I've forgotten more about Steve McQueen than you or anyone else on this forum will ever know, so I'm going to go ahead and keep the name.

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Now, if you want the last word, you can have at it.
 
I just realized to tapped to an achilles lock. Sad
Not saying Andre is an achilles master but there's lots of guys who know how to apply a kind of crushing pressure/angle to where ur ankle will pretty much explode if you don't tap. Lots of small bones in the ankle and foot. The traditional straight achilles lock, as bas said, is a pain move. There are variations though, I promise
 
He got knocked out 90% of the time in half of his fights
 
it's hard to shoot for a takedown when you're damn near 7ft tall and the other guy is much shorter.

Not when the other guy has NO grappling. Big Timmy wasn't exactly a ncaa wrestler but should have known enough to get this on the mat immediately
 
Not when the other guy has NO grappling. Big Timmy wasn't exactly a ncaa wrestler but should have known enough to get this on the mat immediately

yes, but what i'm saying is, it's easier said than done.

to get close enough to take Mercer down, he has to get passed Mercer's punching range. do you really want to try to do that when you're at a disadvantage already being 6'8 AND you're not a wrestler?

his best chance was to use his kicks. he has incredibly long legs and he has KO'd people before with kicks. he could even try to work a trip in there, but i do not think ducking down into Mercer's punching range to shoot a takedown was really a viable option for Sylvia.

did you see the way Couture took Toney down? he shot from a mile a way and went low, real low, because he understood the danger that Toney, even in his fat and out of shape version still possessed.
 
He was never the same after the third AA fight, started fighting not to lose and it really showed. He was alot more timid and really started to have problems with guys who came straight at him. If you sat back and let him throw that telphone pole jab at you he would eventually put you on your ass but stopped being able to handle pressure. Randy really exposed that aspect.

People today who discuss "worst performances ever" have clearly never seen Arlovski vs Sylvia 3... Or Shamrock vs. Severn... Or koscheck vs Sanchez.. Or Shamrock vs Gracie... Whew.
 
he should be considered one now. lots of people consider Cain a HW great just on pure potential.

here's another fun Tim Sylvia fact, he's fought the same amount of the CURRENT top 10 HWs that Cain has, difference is Sylvia retired 5 years ago.

Sylvia has accomplished more based on not being totally spoonfed opponents like Cain has and having more than twice as many wins as Cain has fights.

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Uh no. Which opponents were spoofed to Velasquez? Kongo, no. Rothwell, no. Big Nog, no. Those were fighters he had to face in order to get a title shot. Lesnar, no. JDS, you're fucking stupid if you said yes. Big Foot, no. Browne, maybe. Werdum, no.

Velasquez is better than Sylvia could ever be.
 
Uh no. Which opponents were spoofed to Velasquez? Kongo, no. Rothwell, no. Big Nog, no. Those were fighters he had to face in order to get a title shot. Lesnar, no. JDS, you're fucking stupid if you said yes. Big Foot, no. Browne, maybe. Werdum, no.

Velasquez is better than Sylvia could ever be.

JDS and Bigfoot yes, for half of his fuckin top 10 wins are against TWO GUYS.

Velasquez is better only by opinion, on paper, Sylvia has more wins than Velasquez even has fights. Cain is one of the most overrated fighters i've ever had the displeasure of seeing.

you also conveniently leave out the FACT, that in the CURRENT TOP 10 Sylvia has fought the SAME AMOUNT of guys Cain has fought and he retired 5 years ago.

Cain is spoonfed in the fact that he never has to work his way back up even after losing, even after being KO'd or submitted he's always just 1 win away from a title shot. it's bullshit, especially when guys like Ben Rothwell were on longer streaks and never got the chance.
 
JDS and Bigfoot yes, for half of his fuckin top 10 wins are against TWO GUYS.

Velasquez is better only by opinion, on paper, Sylvia has more wins than Velasquez even has fights. Cain is one of the most overrated fighters i've ever had the displeasure of seeing.

you also conveniently leave out the FACT, that in the CURRENT TOP 10 Sylvia has fought the SAME AMOUNT of guys Cain has fought and he retired 5 years ago.
What?

Kongo, Big Nog, Lesnar, Browne weren't top 10 when Velasquez defeated them, really?

"Sylvia has more wins than Velasquez even has fights"

What does that even mean? Jeremy Horn has 91 fucking wins on his record, is he better than Daniel Cormier? No!

"Cain is one of the most overrated fighters i've ever had the displeasure of seeing."

Really? 14-2 with 12 finishes. 2x HW champion with 2 successful title defenses and you think he's overrated? Jeez.
 
Tim might be one of the worst fighters to ever become champion in the UFC. Well relatively modern day champion not counting the bum fights.

Garbage, Tim was a solid HW. Most champs struggle to defend the belt once.
 
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