Thoughts On Duane Ludwig's Style of Teaching

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by biscuitsbrah, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. biscuitsbrah Black Belt

    biscuitsbrah
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,780
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    Is it just a cheesy short cut to striking or what? I think the shifting is great when setting up kicks or in short combos like how MMA is built around, but at the same time boxing and throwing punches from a different stance regularly is almost madness. Only one Ive seen effective is Andre Ward and im not sure if he even goes southpaw that much.

    He basically wants all his students proficient at both orthodox and southpaw. Which makes sense from an mma perspective because there is more than just punches in mma, you can do takedowns and kicks of both shifts and different stances and its not very hard to get good at in comparison to just hands.

    At what point does one sacrifice fundamentals for creativity?

     
    #1
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  2. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    17,812
    Likes Received:
    2,585
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    His students do pretty well, and when I see his amateurs fight locally they're not doing a ton of shifting, they look like pretty rote (but good!) Dutch style KBers.

    But in terms of switching stances more generally, it's not that big of a deal. Plenty of guys switch some but then come back to their main stance (Tyson comes to mind, Loma does this a lot, Tyrone Spong, there are quite a few), and some very high level guys will fight for long periods of time out of either stance, Marvin Hagler being one of the most notable. In Muay Thai I don't know that it makes that much difference, especially if you're primarily a kicker and/or knee fighter as your stance tends to be pretty square anyway. I can't box for shit southpaw, but I can kick fine with either leg out of either stance.
     
    #2
    esum80 and biscuitsbrah like this.
  3. ctrlaltdelete Green Belt

    ctrlaltdelete
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    Location:
    CHURCH OF MISERY
    What about those drills weren't fundamentally good? It's a simple 4 count drill.

    Jab / hook to lowkick, right straight to switch kick. That's pretty basic.
     
    #3
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  4. biscuitsbrah Black Belt

    biscuitsbrah
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,780
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    No I just like this drill. On his YouTube channel is more of what I'm talking about. Especially the ones tj dillashaw isn't in.

    I mostly watch all the videos dillashaw is in though. Better quality imo
     
    #4
  5. Fire of Youth Green Belt

    Fire of Youth
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    110
    Location:
    Australia
    Switch hitting has a number of benefits. You have more versatility in the ranges, angles, and defences that you can use. As others have said, there are successful switch hitting boxers. Prince Naseem, Herol Graham, Kell Brooks being three more switch hitters who come out of the Ingles gym which specialises in switch-hitting boxers. I am a big fan of Dwayne Ludwig's work. If you look at his vids, you will notice how well the movements flow from each other, mixing defences in with attacks, and the combos aren't finished until they have moved safely out of range.
     
    #5
  6. Ilk Orange Belt

    Ilk
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    138
    Too many ways to fail. This is what I see here. And everybody does the left hook to left round house without balance and some god awful technique. For MMA that is an easy catch to take down I believe. And wtf is this really? Left hook (a short punch) to a left roundhouse - a long kick? Makes sence to get to left knee. Basically a wasted hook. Or even grab to clinch to knee makes sence, but that hook to roundhouse? Without a pause? To at least confuse with tempo and put a decent kick if they go back? Sorry I have been studying too much tactics :D
     
    #6
  7. Jimmy Jazz Brown Belt

    Jimmy Jazz
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,142
    Likes Received:
    2,786
    didnt hoost like to go from left hook to leg kick? or do you mean a body kick?
     
    #7
    Aleksander_Kharitonov and Ilk like this.
  8. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    790
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Switching and shifting isn't as rare in boxing as you think. It's just done differently. Andre Ward does it like you mentioned, but as well as that Gennady Golovkin does it, so did Floyd Mayweather, Guillermo Rigondeaux, Vasyl Lomachenko and old school boxers like Willie Pep and Archie Moore did it.

    It's just not done in the same way, while there are boxers who will just full on switch stance for a round like Miguel Cotto, usually they do it more in the way a fighter like Max Holloway does, switching on a particular punch.

    I think it's a little more noticable with Bang's style because of how TJ Dillashaw tends to spend quite a bit of time in each stance, but keep in mind he was Chad Mendes' coach as well and Mendes wasn't much of a switch hitter at all.

    I think Ludwig's style is completely legit, if anything I think it just suffers from people misunderstanding it. Some people say its this radical new style of fighting, and because of that its brilliant,but in reality it's nothing that sneaky boxers and thai fighters haven't been doing for decades.
     
    #8
    Azam, ctrlaltdelete and biscuitsbrah like this.
  9. nateallan White Belt

    nateallan
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    30
    The issue I have is that Bang like a lot of MMA and American Muay Thai coaches, are in a big hurry to teach advanced techniques to beginners. Good boxing coaches will build you from the ground up which takes years. Switching and shifting is great for those who have been training for years.
     
    #9
    esum80, Azam, biscuitsbrah and 3 others like this.
  10. aerius Brown Belt

    aerius
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,773
    Likes Received:
    3,675
    Location:
    YYZ
    I can't say I get it either, I just tried it out for myself and the weight balance & body mechanics don't work, at least not for me. The closest I could get it to functional was throwing the left hook as almost a feint/throwaway punch and chambering the left leg to throw a TKD style roundhouse. When I tried to throw both strikes with decent weight behind them I end up way off balance, even worse than the guys in the video.

    Hoost used the left hook to right low kick, classic Dutch combo. The guys in the video are going left hook to right low kick, then left hook to left body kick.
     
    #10
    Ilk likes this.
  11. Ilk Orange Belt

    Ilk
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    138
    Ye right? And it does not make sence to drill this from a distance point of view. What is the point of trowing short (you are in the distance for that hit hopefully) and then follow up with a long. And balance issues of course. These guys are professionals and their technique looks bad when they do it, I do not even want to try it.

    As noted hoost went left hook, pause left low kick. It makes sence to pause and then blast a round house if the opponent backs up. It is usually a free kick in that case. But there needs to be a tempo pause. Few months ago I saw a video of a respected kick boxer who was explaining hits from one side make sence if you practice them with a tempo change. He made an example of 1-2, pause, 2. And then something like 1-2, hook to the body or upper cut to the body, pause (get back to defensive position) trow a high round house left kick (orthodox). Obviously he did it all with a great technique and speed. But he noted that this pause and tempo change is what actually confuses the opponent more, than the fact that you trow 2 hits from one side.
     
    #11
    Jimmy Jazz likes this.
  12. freaky Black Belt

    freaky
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    5,266
    Likes Received:
    3,831
    Location:
    Inside Sherdog
    Watch southpaw or any other boxing/martial arts film. It's always the underdog switching stance at last minute to throw off the better fighter and come out winning.

    I don't see a reason NOT to train southpaw or both stances. But plenty of goods.
     
    #12
  13. biscuitsbrah Black Belt

    biscuitsbrah
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,780
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    For everyone complaining about the left hook before the left body kick. It's more of a throwaway punch.

    I really like throwing the right hand before a right head kick. Think Lawler/Macdonald 2. If I remember that was the only setup Rory used. Kinda even poked Lawler in the eye with an open hand the first time
     
    #13
  14. Azam Purple Belt

    Azam
    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,265
    Likes Received:
    302
    Location:
    London
    I think Ludwig is legit as well but he's not doing anything particularly special/unique or new. You'd get the same level/type of instruction with any good MT/Kickboxing coach and in some cases there are probably some coaches/instructors out there that might find provide better instruction.

    I think what he does bring with his instruction that is very unique - is that he's in the rare position of having an extensive professional career in MMA as someone who was primarily a striker. So I think he has a lot of knowledge of how to apply striking in an environment where you can grapple - he has that nuanced experience of how to apply striking in that environment & how to navigate that landscape from a striking perspective - a lot of striking coaches don't necessarily have that kind of know how or experience.

    One thing though that I don't really see in Ludwig's style/instruction is parrying. As someone that tries to do it a lot I find it a bit strange especially coming from a karate background where it's very predominant.
     
    #14
    Fire of Youth likes this.
  15. LEGS MAHONEY genetically modified man shark

    LEGS MAHONEY
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,555
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Location:
    I NO TELL!!!!
    Its a good system. ive been working with one of his guys for the past few months as i felt it was about time to move into MT

    The only thing i feel is their combos can be a bit overly long
     
    #15
    biscuitsbrah and ctrlaltdelete like this.
  16. Jimmy Jazz Brown Belt

    Jimmy Jazz
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,142
    Likes Received:
    2,786
    What do you think is a good fight of TJ's to understand the style? I've pretty much only seen his fight with Cruz and Lineker.
     
    #16
  17. Paradigm Gold Belt

    Paradigm
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    16,346
    Likes Received:
    7,072
    Location:
    LA
    Just a personal preference but not really a fan of the style. Too "movey" and not "stand and bangy" enough for me. I say this as a fan of both Lyoto and Muay Thai.

    Barao.
     
    #17
    Jimmy Jazz and Sano like this.
  18. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    3,919
    Likes Received:
    5,892
    Location:
    Denmark
    Barao 1 and 2, but basicly every fight since the Easton fight, more or less. His fight with Soto is also worth watching to see him having off days. The style is clearly the best against a stationary target, like Barao. His first fight with Barao was beautiful, then the Soto fight just after was so-so, then Barao 2 again was good.
     
    #18
    Jimmy Jazz and esum80 like this.
  19. esum80 Brown Belt

    esum80
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,487
    Likes Received:
    509
    Location:
    鴨川ボクシングジム
    well said. solid fundamentals are key. if you can't even throw something properly in orthodox, then maybe focus on that first before throwing it in southpaw stance or attempting advanced techniques.
     
    #19
    biscuitsbrah likes this.
  20. Jimmy Jazz Brown Belt

    Jimmy Jazz
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,142
    Likes Received:
    2,786
    IF tj makes the same mistake he made with cruz of not setting up his kicks with punches, I think Cody is going to win. I think he'll murk him.
     
    #20

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"