The "Tyrannical Government" argument....

[Islam Imamate]

Shut the fuck up with this BS! Bringing up a single incident in the 60s where people made real bad decisions is your evidence that the military/police will start attacking the citizens of the country.... That the government is coming for you and you need firearms to defend yourself... Really??? Get the fuck out of here!

How many military members do you know and would they follow a order to start killing civilians? How many cops do you know that would follow an order to murder civilians? It's a shit argument you bring up, weak as fuck.

Lol at thinking that the military would be ordered to kill "civilians"

They'd be ordered to kill "terrorists" and it would be laughably easy to embark on the requisite propaganda campaign given how prominent that term is in the public consciousness. Look at how both sides already cynically look to exploit the use of that term for their own ends, calling BLM and school shooters terrorists. We're so polarized that if the resistance can be painted in partisan terms it would be easy to turn the public and military against them.

 

[Rational Poster]

this whole argument is highly nonsensical to me

mainly b/c it assumes that the US government in the event that they are confiscating weapons are going to Play Along Nicely and follow conventional rules of War....

uh no, this isn't Waco where one isolated incidient has the national/world media's eyes on it in a bubble. The entire nation would be Waco or Ruby Ridge, and the government has drones and shit.....

Well, I think the "gun team" thinks their team is much bigger than it actually is.

Most people would rather maintain the status quo than run off into their wilderness with a sleeping bag and an assault rifle without porn, or wifi, or air condition.

We are way softer as a nation then they'd like to admit. The "gun team" itself is way softer than they'd like to admit. For every grizzled war veteran there are a hundred thousand or more pasty white neckbeards that just make pretend they'd fight to the death for their gun rights.

I don't think the question is whether or not the military would turn their guns on civilians but whether or not anyone would actually show up to the rebellion to get shot at.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Then source the fringe lefties who are saying this.

Step 1: YouTube
Step 2: in search insert "antifa college protest"
Step 3: Take crowbar
Step 4: Remove head from anus

Now it's your turn to back up your claim that no fringe leftist has ever Literally hitlered.

 

[Rational Poster]

Step 1: YouTube
Step 2: in search insert "antifa college protest"
Step 3: Take crowbar
Step 4: Remove head from anus

Now it's your turn to back up your claim that no fringe leftist has ever Literally hitlered.

That's not how sourcing works.

Hope this helps.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Step 1: YouTube
Step 2: in search insert "antifa college protest"
Step 3: Take crowbar
Step 4: Remove head from anus

Now it's your turn to back up your claim that no fringe leftist has ever Literally hitlered.

lol I didn't know we were including any random outbursts from college kids in the consideration. I thought we were talking about writers and journalists and commentators in left media.

 

[Rational Poster]

lol I didn't know we were including any random outbursts from college kids in the consideration. I thought we were talking about writers and journalists and commentators in left media.

I think conservatives like @EL CORINTHIAN are terrified of college students because they're smarter.

 

[helltoupee]

What "shit" are you talking about? I'm specifically talking about the government sending in the military. If that's the shit you are talking about your fucking crazy. Like I said, I served for 14 years and never, not one, have I ever served with anyone, in any service, that would turn on their own fellow American.

The Tyrannical Government argument is stupid and not based in reality. Defending yourself from your fellow citizen is absolutely a reality and why I support gun ownership.

It wouldn't be as blatant as you are suggesting though - it never is.

It would be a slow erosion of rights. Certain groups would be labeled as traitors, terrorists and/or unAmerican - groups would be isolated and taken out that way. There wouldn't just be some announcement that the US Government is coming to get everybody. Neither would military/police personnel be under the impression that it was happening this way. Divide and conquer is a fairly proven concept.

I mean look at what happened to David Koresh.

They came and got his weapons. I didn't see Americans 'up in arms' about it, gearing up to stop it. He was labeled as a wacko and killed. And most Americans will say he was a pedophile, cult leader or whatever - regardless of whether or not that's true, the strategy is effective.

 

[Diamond Jim]

It wouldn't be as blatant as you are suggesting though - it never is.

It would be a slow erosion of rights. Certain groups would be labeled as traitors, terrorists and/or unAmerican - groups would be isolated and taken out that way. There wouldn't just be some announcement that the US Government is coming to get everybody. Neither would military/police personnel be under the impression that it was happening this way. Divide and conquer is a fairly proven concept.

I mean look at what happened to David Koresh.

They came and got his weapons. I didn't see Americans 'up in arms' about it, gearing up to stop it. He was labeled as a wacko and killed. And most Americans will say he was a pedophile, cult leader or whatever - regardless of whether or not that's true, the strategy is effective.

So Tim McVeigh’s response to Waco should be considered defending America from a tyrannical gov’t?

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

I think conservatives like @EL CORINTHIAN are terrified of college students because they're smarter.

I'm actually not a conservative just because I disagree with your views. True story

*Awaits GOT gif*

lol I didn't know we were including any random outbursts from college kids in the consideration. I thought we were talking about writers and journalists and commentators in left media.

Oh you wanted actual statistics compiled on literally Hitler moments on the fringe left and expected some scholarly source. Give me a moment.

Spoiler: Sources

lol

@Rational Poster @ultramanhyata
Hope that helps

 

[Rational Poster]

I'm actually not a conservative just because I disagree with your views. True story

*Awaits GOT gif*


Oh you wanted actual statistics compiled on literally Hitler moments on the fringe left and expected some scholarly source. Give me a moment.

Spoiler: Sources

lol

@Rational Poster @ultramanhyata
Hope that helps

 

[EZShrimpn]

We are way softer as a nation then they'd like to admit.

You sound like you've never been punched in the face.

 

[Rational Poster]

You sound like you've never been punched in the face.

I'd say most people haven't ever been punched in the face.

Let alone trudge through the mud, snow, rain, heat, cold without any creature comforts indefinitely.

 

[Deleted member 409801]

On this topic I can never receive an actual answer from supporters on who decides when the gov’t becomes tyrannical enough to take up arms.

Surely that point does exist, does it not? I mean any person of reasonable awareness can acknowledge that it CAN get there however unlikely it may be.

Why must you posit the question in a manner that implies it doesnt , so let with the intention of bolstering your smarmy agenda?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'd say most people haven't ever been punched in the face.

Let alone trudge through the mud, snow, rain, heat, cold without any creature comforts indefinitely.

You can defend yourself from a tyrannical government from your own home. There are cases of officers performing no knock raids on drug suspects and getting killed because the suspect was legitimately defending themselves from what they perceived as a threat and being acquitted afterwards.

As far as I'm concerned that is defending yourself from a tyrannical government given the way police abuse no knock SWAT raids in this country.

My earlier point about the tyranny of local government is very much relevant. In the Jim Crow South tyrannical local government didn't have to do the dirty work themselves, they could simply stand idly by as blacks were terrorized by groups like the KKK. As Malcolm X said at the time:

I must say this concerning the great controversy over rifles and shotguns. The only thing that I’ve ever said is that in areas where the government has proven itself either unwilling or unable to defend the lives and the property of Negroes, it’s time for Negroes to defend themselves. Article number two of the constitutional amendments provides you and me the right to own a rifle or a shotgun. It is constitutionally legal to own a shotgun or a rifle.

 

[Islam Imamate]

On this topic I can never receive an actual answer from supporters on who decides when the gov’t becomes tyrannical enough to take up arms.

The person being victimized does and then we the rest of us decide if we agree as in the case of those who defend themselves against no knock raids. Sometimes they get charged, sometimes they don't. To be fair in their case they're not consciously defending themselves against the government but rather defending themselves from some unknown threat but as far as I'm cornered that's precisely what they're doing and if I was on a jury on such a case I'd do whatever I could to get the guy off Scot free.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Oh you wanted actual statistics compiled on literally Hitler moments on the fringe left and expected some scholarly source. Give me a moment.

If people on the left are making this claim in any serious sense one would expect to see it reflected in left-leaning articles or podcasts. You know this.

 

[helltoupee]

So Tim McVeigh’s response to Waco should be considered defending America from a tyrannical gov’t?

I guess it's all about perspective.

The sinking of the Titanic must've felt like a miracle to the lobster in the kitchens.

 

[helltoupee]

You can defend yourself from a tyrannical government from your own home. There are cases of officers performing no knock raids on drug suspects and getting killed because the suspect was legitimately defending themselves from what they perceived as a threat and being acquitted afterwards.

As far as I'm concerned that is defending yourself from a tyrannical government given the way police abuse no knock SWAT raids in this country.

My earlier point about the tyranny of local government is very much relevant. In the Jim Crow South tyrannical local government didn't have to do the dirty work themselves, they could simply stand idly by as blacks were terrorized by groups like the KKK. As Malcolm X said at the time:

I think you bring up a good point Kafir. I never thought about the angle of a tyrannical local government that could be potentially resisted. The only thing I'm not sure about is how quickly a response to that resistance would be escalated to involving State or National LEO.

This whole conversation reminds of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout - which I believe LA cops carry heavier firepower as the result of it, but they were able to engage 100s of officers before they were brought down. I actually remember watching it on live TV and being blown away that LEO couldn't bring these guys down when they were just out in the open walking around nonchalantly.

 

[GOATER]

Trump became president....you're retarded, if you dont think the government can convince military troops to turn on the people.


All they need is a terrorist attack, some good propaganda ads, some charismatic leader and it will happen.


Never buy into your own hype.....America can totally turn, and trump pretty much proved this by getting elected...theres a lot of retards in the United States.


If the United States became a tyrannical government, sure they would be much more aggressive and disregard citizens lives, but up to a point...They wouldn't go all out, carpet bombing everything......An American Insurgency would be strong as fuck, because a lot of 2nd amendment people have military training, are very loyal to the constitution, and have plenty of weapons./


You're stupid, if you don't think the USA military would have a problem with an insurgency.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think you bring up a good point Kafir. I never thought about the angle of a tyrannical local government that could be potentially resisted. The only thing I'm not sure about is how quickly a response to that resistance would be escalated to involving State or National LEO.

This whole conversation reminds of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout - which I believe LA cops carry heavier firepower as the result of it, but they were able to engage 100s of officers before they were brought down. I actually remember watching it on live TV and being blown away that LEO couldn't bring these guys down when they were just out in the open walking around nonchalantly.

Well ideally you don't try to overthrow the local government. In the case of no knock raids you defend yourself in the moment that state actors threaten your life but eventually you would surrender to the legal system and hope a jury of your peers would see things your way.

In the case of the Jim Crow South, often local police departments would simply allow groups like the KKK to terrorize blacks and even if racial murders did get the attention of local law enforcement in many cases the murderer would be acquitted by an all white jury. So in that instance resistance would mean defending yourself against the threats to your life and property through the 2nd amendment and a wider campaign of trying to agitate for change through the use of the 1st amendment and that's more or less what happened in the Jim Crow South.