The Star Trek Thread, V5.0

[Philo-Publius]

I never "justified" anything. I wouldn't have cared if there were less than five "families". Can you guess why I chose five? And why it also is an arbitrary number based on power and hierarchies?

Look, I have no idea why you tagged me and dragged me back into this.

Read this:

Great House
The Great Houses were a Klingon feudalistic social organization that dominated the Klingon Empire. The twenty-four most powerful Houses were represented on the Klingon High Council. (DIS: "The Vulcan Hello")

Ronald D. Moore stated, "We've never explored the hows and whys regarding the naming of Klingon Houses. The House of Mogh reference was probably something that Worf carried on out of respect for his deceased father. This might be the right of a son – to perpetuate a single name for the House instead of supplanting it with his own." (AOL chat, 1997)

Ron Moore's concept of the conflicting, family-organized Great Houses was inspired by the Dune mythology created by Frank Herbert. In a Klingon-defining memo which Moore sent to Michael Piller at the outset of working on "Sins of the Father", Moore stated, "A Klingon regards the honor of his or her family to be valuable, above all else.
​

If this doesn't satisfy you, nothing will. This was the first time I read this article, and I had never needed to because what it's saying is incredibly obvious to anyone who has read ten thousand pages of the Dune series, or has any understanding at all of Feudal hierarchies.

What you quoted above makes more sense. It is not what you stated in our initial conversation though and severre054's recent post indicated that STD was acknowledging the hierarchy that previous incarnations of Star Trek established. That is why you got "dragged" back into the conversation.

 

[JDragon]

First the Picard annoucement and now this. It feels like now that they have the momentum, they really wanna make sure they don't lose the core audience along the way. It is worth noting that the Klingon thing is not inconsistent with what has been said before.

 

[FrankNStein]

What you quoted above makes more sense. It is not what you stated in our initial conversation though and severre054's recent post indicated that STD was acknowledging the hierarchy that previous incarnations of Star Trek established. That is why you got "dragged" back into the conversation.

There are 24 major houses at the top of the hierarchy and countless minor houses below them that are subservient to the major houses. They didn't outright state this in Discovery because they assumed that the fan base was smart enough to figure that out themselves as there is literally no other way that it could possibly be.

 

[JDragon]

I really hope the new Picard series will be used to introduce thrilling new species and storylines to base a truly new series off of. I mean Post-Nemesis and Prime are excellent keywords, but Stewart is 78 and probably not willing to do a full schedule. I would expect this will be a mini series.

 

[Loiosh]

What you quoted above makes more sense. It is not what you stated in our initial conversation though and severre054's recent post indicated that STD was acknowledging the hierarchy that previous incarnations of Star Trek established. That is why you got "dragged" back into the conversation.

It makes more sense than the first thing I said to you?

"...can you really not see how a greater house could have dominion over multiple planets, or how thousands or millions of families could consider themselves part of such a "house"?"

I used the Dune reference right out of the gate not because I had read the article where they state implicitly that they copied it, but because it was incredibly obvious they were doing exactly the same thing. You also said this, which is one hundred percent false: "Star Trek canon has shit to do with Dune." Dune inspired the Klingon hierarchy system.

When a relatively small group of families controls such vast territory, the only reasonable assumption is that each group is a collection of a multitude of families, not "there are only twenty four Klingon families". I don't think you reached an even remotely reasonable conclusion.

 

[Philo-Publius]

There are 24 major houses at the top of the hierarchy and countless minor houses below them that are subservient to the major houses. They didn't outright state this in Discovery because they assumed that the fan base was smart enough to figure that out themselves as there is literally no other way that it could possibly be.

The whole crux of my argument was that there had to be lower houses. It's STD that I had no faith in being "smart enough" to figure out there had to be lower houses.

 

[JDragon]

http://www.syfy.co.uk/news/3-direct...r-trek-series-could-realistically-boldly-go-0

Good article

 

[Philo-Publius]

It makes more sense than the first thing I said to you?

"...can you really not see how a greater house could have dominion over multiple planets, or how thousands or millions of families could consider themselves part of such a "house"?"

I used the Dune reference right out of the gate not because I had read the article where they state implicitly that they copied it, but because it was incredibly obvious they were doing exactly the same thing. You also said this, which is one hundred percent false: "Star Trek canon has shit to do with Dune." Dune inspired the Klingon hierarchy system.

When a relatively small group of families controls such vast territory, the only reasonable assumption is that each group is a collection of a multitude of families, not "there are only twenty four Klingon families". I don't think you reached an even remotely reasonable conclusion.

Dune didn't invent feudalism. There were clearly other inspirations.

The episode "The Bonding" turned out to be the conceptual genesis of Klingon Houses. Recalling his writing of the installment, Ron Moore explained, "I started thinking about [...] Houses, and sort of, you know, the idea of bonding people to a Klingon House [....] The idea of bloodlines and families and sort of this Shakespearian idea of how the Klingon Empire ran – I was starting to, sort of, deal with that in this episode." Moore reckoned, "I think I used the word 'House' in my draft [of 'The Bonding'], even though it's not in the episode." (The Bonding" audio commentary, TNG Season 3 Blu-ray) Neither is the term included in the third revised draft of the installment's script. [1]

 

[Loiosh]

Dune didn't invent feudalism. There were clearly other inspirations.

You're sprawling, to avoid the fact you were wrong.

Just accept it and move on. That's how people learn. I'm wrong all the time and have no problem admitting it.

Thanks for wasting another chunk of my time, this was as frustrating as the last one.

 

[Philo-Publius]

You're sprawling, to avoid the fact you were wrong.

Just accept it and move on. That's how people learn. I'm wrong all the time and have no problem admitting it.

Thanks for wasting another chunk of my time, this was as frustrating as the last one.

No. I was entirely right. There are more than 24 houses. lol

 

[Loiosh]

No. I was entirely right. There are more than 24 houses. lol

Which is why when I asked you if it was possible the 24 great house were comprised of a multitude of smaller ones you agreed immediately.

 

[Philo-Publius]

Which is why when I asked you if it was possible the 24 great house were comprised of a multitude of smaller ones you agreed immediately.

They never used the terminology "great houses."

 

[Loiosh]

They never used the terminology "great houses."

OK.

So you assumed they were saying there was only 24 families in the Klingon Empire.

You're a very special kind of dim.

 

[Philo-Publius]

OK.

So you assumed they were saying there was only 24 families in the Klingon Empire.

You're a very special kind of dim.

^ Name-calling: Always the token of the "high-rent" crowd.

Not at all. It's a totally sensible lack of confidence in STD's creators.

 

[Loiosh]

^ Name-calling: Always the token of the "high-rent" crowd.

Not at all. It's a totally sensible lack of confidence in STD's creators.

I bet you've been waiting for the name calling for a dozen posts, you've certainly been infuriating enough. Congratulations, you pushed me last the limits of my patience.

There's no way around it, though. If you thought it was literal families, you're dim. There's no reason to think that was the case; if you have any exposure to fiction or popular culture, you should have been open to how these things work. Did you think everyone in the Corleone family was a Corleone? Let me guess, you had more respect for those writers. Well, guess what? You made an idiotic assumption and you were wrong.

Anyways, you were looking for a fight, you found one, sorry I kicked your teeth in. Maybe you learned something here, although I sincerely doubt it.

To everyone in this thread who came to actually talk Star Trek, I'm sorry I wasted so much space arguing with this guy. I should show more restraint, it's never worth it.

 

[Philo-Publius]

I bet you've been waiting for the name calling for a dozen posts, you've certainly been infuriating enough. Congratulations, you pushed me last the limits of my patience.

There's no way around it, though. If you thought it was literal families, you're dim. There's no reason to think that was the case; if you have any exposure to fiction or popular culture, you should have been open to how these things work. Did you think everyone in the Corleone family was a Corleone? Let me guess, you had more respect for those writers. Well, guess what? You made an idiotic assumption and you were wrong.

Anyways, you were looking for a fight, you found one, sorry I kicked your teeth in. Maybe you learned something here, although I sincerely doubt it.

To everyone in this thread who came to actually talk Star Trek, I'm sorry I wasted so much space arguing with this guy. I should show more restraint, it's never worth it.

^ There he is. Mr. monopoly on "reason and common sense" pretending like he needed "limits" to show his true colors.

You should stick to topics you really excel at like discussing your favorite Tom Hanks film.

 

[sverre054]

/\
I
I
I

Its like listening to two Tellarites "talking" politics

 

[sverre054]

http://www.syfy.co.uk/news/3-direct...r-trek-series-could-realistically-boldly-go-0

Good article

Intresting theories.

In the book series he still captain, married to Beverly, and is raising a young child and how that has changed him now that hes in his 80s.

What's interesting in last year Autobiography of Jean Luc Picard, shortly after nemesis, he also marries Beverly. A few years later Beverly is promoted to captain, and becomes captain of the Pasteur. Picard decides to retire from Star Fleet shortly after, rather then become an admiral, and returns to the winery. He and Beverly have a long distance marriage for years but grow apart. After a few years hes bored and is asked by the federation to become ambassador to Vulcan. They try to long distance marriage for a few more years, but Beverly doesn't want to leave star fleet, and they eventually divorce.

Im curious to see if they use any of the events from those in the new series. I could see them going with Picard becomes Federation ambassador to Vulcan following the destruction of Romulus. Has to Navigate the tough situation, and the fallout with the Roumlan star empire, and possible reunification with the Vulcans, and how this will effect the Federation. Picard is the natural bridge having mind melded with Spock, who tried to save Romulus and was pushing for unification, and Sarek a key Vulcan leader and Federation ambassador.

 

[JDragon]

Intresting theories.

In the book series he still captain, married to Beverly, and is raising a young child and how that has changed him now that hes in his 80s.

What's interesting in last year Autobiography of Jean Luc Picard, shortly after nemesis, he also marries Beverly. A few years later Beverly is promoted to captain, and becomes captain of the Pasteur. Picard decides to retire from Star Fleet shortly after, rather then become an admiral, and returns to the winery. He and Beverly have a long distance marriage for years but grow apart. After a few years hes bored and is asked by the federation to become ambassador to Vulcan. They try to long distance marriage for a few more years, but Beverly doesn't want to leave star fleet, and they eventually divorce.

Im curious to see if they use any of the events from those in the new series. I could see them going with Picard becomes Federation ambassador to Vulcan following the destruction of Romulus. Has to Navigate the tough situation, and the fallout with the Roumlan star empire, and possible reunification with the Vulcans, and how this will effect the Federation. Picard is the natural bridge having mind melded with Spock, who tried to save Romulus and was pushing for unification, and Sarek a key Vulcan leader and Federation ambassador.

I agree. I even think the ambassador thing is also where Picard shines most (Darmok e.g.).

It is definitely worth remembering that prior to Star Trek (2009), they made a point of stressing that the Countdown comic was part of Canon. It's why I bought it.

 

[JDragon]

On vacation in Croatia and finally got around to downloading the Destiny series after @sverre054 's persistent recommendations. Will report.