The Soviet school of boxing

[Cyclone Mike]

Sucks to be blue....

Looks like a lot of fun to be red though.

 

[shpboris]

I think, that no amount of difference in class can make you look that bad ...
It is just because "blue"guy stopped trying and was scared ...

 

[MurphysLawyer]

Okay, finished it, I would like to be the guy in red. Very much so. And it was pretty hilarious.

 

[MurphysLawyer]

Watching this and other videos recently has taken me down a different rabbithole though- watching Ukrainians.

They are clearly of the Soviet school, just form checking their posture and technique, but they seem to have a much more aggressive, in-your-face-style. Am i just seeing weird things because it's late, or is there a reason for this? Whatever it is, I like it. A lot.

 

[shpboris]

Beautiful technical sparring of World champion vs Olympic champion.
Watch - you will not regret it !

That is what soviet school is all about - watch in-and-out footwork, active lead hand, drawing opponent attacks, perfect balance with a bit more weight on the back foot distribution etc.

Starts from 14:50.

[YT]dIuLm9XBPHc[/YT]

 

[ironwolf]

Ross Enemait wrote up a direct comparrison in a book he did a few years ago, its a good read.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

Interesting thread....seems on the standup forum people contribute and try to learn from each other more than argue and troll like on other forums.

 

[shpboris]

Good fight that is relevant to the thread -

[YT]0rsPnF3QXo8[/YT]

 

[NVSemin]

I want to stop all bullshit by saying there is NO soviet school of boxing.

Most of fighters in USSR were trained based on educational materials developed based on the input from US pro boxing. The best soviet and russian fighters (Tszue, Golovkin, Pirog, Kovalev, Karmazin) are and were fighting very closely to best pro boxers in the US (not necessarily americans) such as Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Oscar De La Hoya. I am saying all these based on interviews of these guys.

In other words, there is an ADOPTATION of the american pro fighting style to the amateur boxing done in the USSR. In most cases, it is quite akwards and not technically perfect. However, USSR athletes won many many bouts based not only on the pure technique. It is more complex of course. There have been also some pure talents, which could not be framed into some "school".

Suggest all readers stop waisting time and study the best.

 

[Sinister]

Uh, what? Ali, Leonard, Duran...they fight nothing like Tszyu, Golovkin, Kovalev, Pirog.

Also, FWIW, Ali's most influential instructor was a Cuban. So in theory, a lot of what he did more closely resembled the communist allies than anything else. Though like the Cubans, he did a lot of what he did going backwards. So, his style can't even be classified as "American" just because he was American. Cuba is part of the Americas, but their entire program is based off of the USSR's programs to this day.

The USSR and many other Countries train VERY differently than American athletes. Anyone who has spent any time in Gyms here in the U.S., and then gotten to know athletes from other places will tell you this. It's also most evident now in how the U.S. is absolutely terrible at winning medals. Yet Cuba and Eastern Bloc fighters are still going strong at the elite level of World Amateur boxing. To suggest there is no difference is simply absurd. They may have said those fighters influenced the fighters you named, but there's no way their fighting was patterned after those guys.

 

[shpboris]

I want to stop all bullshit by saying there is NO soviet school of boxing.

Most of fighters in USSR were trained based on educational materials developed based on the input from US pro boxing. The best soviet and russian fighters (Tszue, Golovkin, Pirog, Kovalev, Karmazin) are and were fighting very closely to best pro boxers in the US (not necessarily americans) such as Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Oscar De La Hoya. I am saying all these based on interviews of these guys.

In other words, there is an ADOPTATION of the american pro fighting style to the amateur boxing done in the USSR. In most cases, it is quite akwards and not technically perfect. However, USSR athletes won many many bouts based not only on the pure technique. It is more complex of course. There have been also some pure talents, which could not be framed into some "school".

Suggest all readers stop waisting time and study the best.

None of the above is correct. The most interesting thing, that after saying "I want to stop bullshit" - you write an absolute crap ))))

 

[PivotPunch]

Tbf though the difference in styles in slowly disappearing everything is global fighters from everywhere train in the US and trainers from everywhere live in different countries. Also the original Soviet trainers if even still alive are old so soon there will be only the boxers they trained left but over time the style differences ebtween countries will disappear and it will be much more about the individual trainers.

To a certain degree that's good since you can learn every style everywhere but at the other hand there ar eprobably many trainers who have no idea what they are doing and you have to search a long time to find trainers who are capable of training high level fighters.

Also there are many trainers who train in MMA gyms or whatever and don't have the pure boxing knowledge to train high level pros as we see and i don't mean that disrespectfully but ALvarado's and Chris Algieries trainers shouldn't train high level pros

 

[Sinister]

That's not really how it works, though. These guys have always lived in different places. Dadi's first instructor was Cuban...in ICELAND. That's the last place I'd expect a Cuban to be. Pedro Diaz was the head of Cuba's entire program, it didn't dissolve when he left. Those systems are fairly easy to function in, so there will always be replacements. And standouts within those replacements.

 

[Cyclone Mike]

I heard they have decent Thai food in Iceland, although hardly any Thais. I don't think this anything to do with the conversation.

But if you see how hard it is to convince someone that something they've been taught as fact is wrong... You can easily see how there could still be national schools of thought that will continue that way for forever.

 

[Gregolian]

Russian system is more about those:

1.
Fighting from long distance

2.
Good balance and footwork with emphasys on constant in-and-out
motion (called "chelnok" in russian).

3.
Good loose lead hand, which should always be working and disturbing the opponent.

4.
Straight punches

That's what happens when you can have 6'7" 19 year olds fighting on your amateur teams.

 

[killedsirius]

Ireland Hired Gerogian Zaur Antia as second coach to Billy Walsh, added a high performance unit and got rid of individual coaches for elite amateurs. We got 4 medals last Olympics, 3 before that. We're a tiny nation where boxing is a marginal sport. We've always had successful boxers but our recent achievements have been outstanding. It's due, in my opinion, to the adoption of Soviet style coaching and focus on team development combined with our natural combative nature.


On a side note, Katie Taylor is the only elite boxer who has her own coach in the corner, but he's her dad and she's still trained by the high performance unit as a rule.

 

[Sinister]

For the record though, in response to this^, I'm not against individual training. Right now I have a really good streamlined staff here at Tocco's and I dislike greatly when other Gyms try to limit our number of trainers at their events because sometimes we'll have 6 kids, most of which have different trainers, fighting on a card.

If anything, the U.S. is backwards from what happened in Ireland. Due to our size, I think we should UNdo our attempt to resemble the communist countries because every time some of our REALLY good Amateurs go to Colorado, many of them don't get better. It would take a really crack staff to handle the different styles you get from all across the U.S. and refine them, not just attempt to make them all fit into a mold. And most of the trainers I know of who are capable of that, would turn down leading the U.S. Team because they feel pastures are greener in the Pros.

Instead we alienate a talented youngster from their trainer, try to change their style, then send them to the Olympics already in a weird frame of mind. ADD to that favoritism (more than once Jesse Magdaleno should have gone to international events, not Rau'shee Warren). And you have what looks like an eroding program. Things were much better when we allowed individual trainers to go to the Olympics with their fighters.

 

[PivotPunch]

That's not really how it works, though. These guys have always lived in different places. Dadi's first instructor was Cuban...in ICELAND. That's the last place I'd expect a Cuban to be. Pedro Diaz was the head of Cuba's entire program, it didn't dissolve when he left. Those systems are fairly easy to function in, so there will always be replacements. And standouts within those replacements.

Yeah but Cuba is still more isolated than any other boxing country so it still produces those coaches authetnic Soviet coaches obviously aren't made anymore there are only guys who come from that lineage and teach like Kostya Tsyzu but in 30-50 years the landscape of boxing coaches will probably looka lot different and I'm not sure if it will be for the better.
Obviously that's still far away but even now it is already starting to dilute

 

[a guy]

Yeah but Cuba is still more isolated than any other boxing country so it still produces those coaches authetnic Soviet coaches obviously aren't made anymore there are only guys who come from that lineage and teach like Kostya Tsyzu but in 30-50 years the landscape of boxing coaches will probably looka lot different and I'm not sure if it will be for the better.
Obviously that's still far away but even now it is already starting to dilute

You're ignoring what he said. It's not about the individual coaches, it's about the systems that produce them. Good systems outlive coaches, even if they evolve.

I think it's pretty obvious that the landscape of coaches will be different in the next couple of decades. That doesn't mean systems and regional styles are ever going to disappear.

 

[shpboris]

You're ignoring what he said. It's not about the individual coaches, it's about the systems that produce them. Good systems outlive coaches, even if they evolve.

I think it's pretty obvious that the landscape of coaches will be different in the next couple of decades. That doesn't mean systems and regional styles are ever going to disappear.

I do agree with that and I think it is good to mention "regional styles" in this discussion.
My vision is that there the "style" of an individual fighter is influenced on the few levels.

-Country
-Regional
-Specific team
-Individual

So saying something like "Soviet school" is a bit of generalization. Meaning, there are certainly common things (were already mentioned in this thread), but in different areas of USSR things were taught a bit differently. I am pretty sure that the same holds for US and other countries.

Also despite "regional schools", you have very specific coaches\team mates so they form their school where people tend to learn\execute things in specific way.

And finally it is the individual - fighters are not robots after all, so they form their unique styles based on their strengths\weaknesses.

But anyway, you can certainly spot the common things even on the national level.
I.e stance, approach to fighting and coaching etc.