The "secret" of Gracie's success - reproduction.

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want. Talk to anyone who grew up in Rio in the 80s and 90s and they'll be happy to tell you about the Gracies descending on clubs (like, dance clubs) in big groups, kicking people out, and basically turning everything into shit shows which they could do because A. there were a lot of them, and they were all good fighters, and there weren't a lot of guns around this not being America and B. Gracie jiu jitsu was a very popular martial art among judges and attorneys in Rio and as such they basically never got heckled by the police, Brazil being a nation where the law is a flexible concept.

I dont have a lot of access to people living in Rio at that time. Was this just the Gracies that did this? Were there other groups that went into clubs and turned it into a shit show?

 

[Coconutwater]

Stopped reading after I think.....

Is there any evidence to this?

Evidence of what?

That you automatically know in the back of your mind that fifty other Gracie's will come after you should you beat one of them up in a street fight?

There is an implied threat.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I dont have a lot of access to people living in Rio at that time. Was this just the Gracies that did this? Were there other groups that went into clubs and turned it into a shit show?

I think there were plenty. It definitely wasn't just then. Gang activity has always been a problem in Rio.

 

[Coconutwater]

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want. Talk to anyone who grew up in Rio in the 80s and 90s and they'll be happy to tell you about the Gracies descending on clubs (like, dance clubs) in big groups, kicking people out, and basically turning everything into shit shows which they could do because A. there were a lot of them, and they were all good fighters, and there weren't a lot of guns around this not being America and B. Gracie jiu jitsu was a very popular martial art among judges and attorneys in Rio and as such they basically never got heckled by the police, Brazil being a nation where the law is a flexible concept.

This.

Not only is there the near 100% probability you have to contend with more than one Gracie should you beat one of them up, you end up alienating yourself from 60% of the MMA or jiu jitsu community that traces their lineage to Carlos and Helio, and furthermore, cops, judges and even the President have intervened on their behalf in the past.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want. Talk to anyone who grew up in Rio in the 80s and 90s and they'll be happy to tell you about the Gracies descending on clubs (like, dance clubs) in big groups, kicking people out, and basically turning everything into shit shows which they could do because A. there were a lot of them, and they were all good fighters, and there weren't a lot of guns around this not being America and B. Gracie jiu jitsu was a very popular martial art among judges and attorneys in Rio and as such they basically never got heckled by the police, Brazil being a nation where the law is a flexible concept.

I have read many times on here, the Sherdog forums, and heard from many different places that BJJ is not really that popular or well known in the Brazil. And that it really only became a thing after the first TUF.

Like I have heard comments like when someone in Brazil thinks of ground fighting they think Judo or freestyle wrestling. They dont really think of BJJ. Judo apparently is more popular, but martial arts in general arent that big.

One would think if the Gracie's did indeed go around doing those things, they be all over the news, and everyone will know what BJJ is about.

 

[EGDM]

I have read many times on here, the Sherdog forums, and heard from many different places that BJJ is not really that popular or well known in the Brazil. And that it really only became a thing after the first TUF.

Like I have heard comments like when someone in Brazil thinks of ground fighting they think Judo or freestyle wrestling. They dont really think of BJJ. Judo apparently is more popular, but martial arts in general arent that big.

One would think if the Gracie's did indeed go around doing those things, they be all over the news, and everyone will know what BJJ is about.

I have a large extended family in Rio. They're all familiar with BJJ (as distinct from Judo and striking arts) and think that it's a martial art for thugs.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I have a large extended family in Rio. They're all familiar with BJJ (as distinct from Judo and striking arts) and think that it's a martial art for thugs.

That's actually what I was going to say. In the 90s in Rio the pitte boy gangs were notorious for being thugs and starting shit everywhere they went, and BJJ was their martial art of choice (mostly since it was so closely tied to the vale tudo scene). Certainly not all BJJ guys were thugs, but there was some truth to stereotype. Ryan Gracie was especially notorious.

 

[lechien]

I am very aware of that. Many of the early "jiu-jitsu" teachers around the world where Kodokan judo guys. Some others had ther training in other JJ-styles like Tenjin Shiyo ryu ect. But it all was named and called just "Jiu-Jitsu" around the world. Even in Japan judo/jujutsu was used synonymysly in early 1900. The term judo - and Kodokan as an international organization - really took over around the wrold after WW2.

The point - or question - I am trying to make here is: 1. why all these early JJ-schools around the world desapeared? 2. but why Gracie-JJ survived? My simpefied answer is: 1. Because of big/strong Kodokan 2. because of the big/strong Gracie-family. Not because the technique was unique. Although now the technique is unique because it transimits the tradition of early 1900 jiu-jitsu/judo.

The Gracie's were able to advance their martial art throught a vast amount of young Gracie's and away from any Japanese influence which could have restricted their research. Basically, traditional martial arts are static and the Gracie's just kept improving because they were not restrained by tradition.

Now when you says that the Gracie's have the same jj skills as others.

It might be the case but I think what is unique is the points system they created which encourage the guard system and positional dominance and progression.

People tends to take the above for granted but it is very unique to the Gracie's.

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

Evidence of what?

That you automatically know in the back of your mind that fifty other Gracie's will come after you should you beat one of them up in a street fight?

There is an implied threat.

In a land of machismo where gang fights, brawls, street fights and killings happen now there were people afraid of the Gracies? ? I think there maybe more to living in Rio vs the Gracie family in itself

 

[OKMS]

The Gracie's were able to advance their martial art throught a vast amount of young Gracie's and away from any Japanese influence which could have restricted their research. Basically, traditional martial arts are static and the Gracie's just kept improving because they were not restrained by tradition.

Now when you says that the Gracie's have the same jj skills as others.

It might be the case but I think what is unique is the points system they created which encourage the guard system and positional dominance and progression.

People tends to take the above for granted but it is very unique to the Gracie's.

I do agree with you. Nowdays it is unique in many ways the positional hierargy being the main innovation. But reading Carlos Gracie book I got the impression that innovation was discovered -or at least inforced with rules - later, maybe 70s, 90s at latest. Most of the early (pre 50s) fight that Carlos, Helio, Oswaldo and George had where sub only grappling.

I am not trying to put down JJ, judo or the Gracies here. I love those arts, but I also love history

 

[Coconutwater]

I have read many times on here, the Sherdog forums, and heard from many different places that BJJ is not really that popular or well known in the Brazil. And that it really only became a thing after the first TUF.

Like I have heard comments like when someone in Brazil thinks of ground fighting they think Judo or freestyle wrestling. They dont really think of BJJ. Judo apparently is more popular, but martial arts in general arent that big.

One would think if the Gracie's did indeed go around doing those things, they be all over the news, and everyone will know what BJJ is about.

The Gracie's were connected to the ruling class and thus, avoided any negative publicity or law enforcement. Rio was their playground. One such example was when Royler and Rickson, with authorization from the local police, got to choke a group of beach hoodlums one by one prior to the hoodlums being taken into custody. Note, the fight occurred between two private parties, the Gracie brothers and some locals. In this case, the law should not play favorites. It is more than likely the Gracie's engendered a lot of ill-will with their machismo and thus, attracted and welcomed conflict.

 

[lechien]

The Gracie's were connected to the ruling class and thus, avoided any negative publicity or law enforcement. Rio was their playground. One such example was when Royler and Rickson, with authorization from the local police, got to choke a group of beach hoodlums one by one prior to the hoodlums being taken into custody. Note, the fight occurred between two private parties, the Gracie brothers and some locals. In this case, the law should not play favorites. It is more than likely the Gracie's engendered a lot of ill-will with their machismo and thus, attracted and welcomed conflict.

Correct.
Helio went to jail for street bashing but got pardoned after one of hisstufeny was the brother of the president

 

[BOWHUNTER]

what is this "deep rolling" sounds homoerotic. If it is, Im all in.

 

[snowman22]

what is this "deep rolling" sounds homoerotic. If it is, Im all in.

If your class mates are ok with you rolling in an erotic way, go ahead bro. You could use baby oil and roll in just underwear.

"Rolling deep" is where you spar at a very high intensity. Another way of describing it would be aggressive rolling or hard rolling.

 

[theslug]

think the choque series of books is more accurate

 

[nefti]

Well the Gracie jiu jitsu is a business.

Kodokan Judo was never meant to be a business and look as a education tool to better humans.


For example the judo instructors cannot promote his bb. It is the role of the federation. Loss of control and cash!

kano was smart enough to consolidate authority and intertwine his organization into the public school system guaranteeing that the organization that he heads can provide promotions and employment opportunities to judokas.

There are private judo gyms in japan and they charge just as much as other martial arts.

I would think that kodokan judokas would frown upon business that profit of Judo?

But I could be wrong.

if a man spends his entire life/youth destroying his body then that man should be able to recoup for the sacrifice he has made. I am sure that most kodokan black belts can see through the bullshit of "oh you are a martial artist so you must teach me. But you can't make a decent living and you can't make enough to comfortably support your family because you are a martial artist".

 

[greenocelot]

Actually it is incorrect.

Maeda is kodokan and was sent to preach kano jiu jitsu aka Judo to the world.

You are a smart and nice guy, but although Maeda waived the flag of judo, and although his stand up was judo, his ground fighting was not. As we all know, Tanabe beat the Kodokan so many times with ground fighting, and we all know that Kano came from two styles of Jujutsu that lacked ground fighting, and furthermore Kano hated ground fighting and was relucatant to added it in large portions to Kodokan curriculum, and he famously said something "Human beings were meant to walk, not crawl"; and recent research has shown that Tanabe had a long period of teaching at the Butoku Kai since 1895. So Maeda may have represented judo, but his ground game was not of original judo, because judoka were inspired after the defeat to learn ground fighting from various styles of jujutsu or to learn from Tanabe himself.

 

[loyalyolayal]

Kind of crazy right. Sex for reproduction more important than monogomy. Isn't that how the Mormon religion started. Sounds pretty convinent for the dude that started it

Grappling of peace.

 

[Ryo]

You are a smart and nice guy, but although Maeda waived the flag of judo, and although his stand up was judo, his ground fighting was not. As we all know, Tanabe beat the Kodokan so many times with ground fighting, and we all know that Kano came from two styles of Jujutsu that lacked ground fighting, and furthermore Kano hated ground fighting and was relucatant to added it in large portions to Kodokan curriculum, and he famously said something "Human beings were meant to walk, not crawl"; and recent research has shown that Tanabe had a long period of teaching at the Butoku Kai since 1895. So Maeda may have represented judo, but his ground game was not of original judo, because judoka were inspired after the defeat to learn ground fighting from various styles of jujutsu or to learn from Tanabe himself.

You are a nice guy, but most of what you said is horseshit and has very little proof. Kano didnt hate groundfighting, he just though standup was more important to self defence. He preserved the Kosen tradition in schools and encouraged them to grow. Tanabe was a Fusen Ryu practicione, but there is no evidence that Fusen Ryu has any ground fighting techniques. It's primarily a throwing art. There is some evidence that Tanabe himself may have had a preference for newaza and thus he may have been more proficient than the average Judoka at the time.

Maeda had two Judo teachers. Jigoro Kano and Tsunejiro Tomita. Maedas life works was about waving the flag of Kodokan Judo.

 

[greenocelot]

You are a nice guy, but most of what you said is horseshit and has very little proof. Kano didnt hate groundfighting, he just though standup was more important to self defence. He preserved the Kosen tradition in schools and encouraged them to grow. Tanabe was a Fusen Ryu practicione, but there is no evidence that Fusen Ryu has any ground fighting techniques. It's primarily a throwing art. There is some evidence that Tanabe himself may have had a preference for newaza and thus he may have been more proficient than the average Judoka at the time.

Maeda had two Judo teachers. Jigoro Kano and Tsunejiro Tomita. Maedas life works was about waving the flag of Kodokan Judo.

1. "Tanabe Mataemon talks about his Fusen-Ryu Jiujutsu" (PDF). Syd Hoare. Retrieved November 7, 2012.
2. John Stevens, The Way of Judo: A Portrait of Jigoro Kano and his Students, Shambala, 2013
3. Takeshi Kuroda, Mei Senshu Monogatari #8: Tanabe Mataemon, Modern Judo magazine, June 20, 1980
4. 外編２−古流と講道館流
5. Kainan Shimomura, Henri Plée's Revue Judo Kodokan, September 1952
6. Christian Quidet, La fabuleuse histoire des Arts Martiaux
7. Cesare Barioli, L’Avventure del Judo, Corpo Mente Cuore
8. Sekiguchi-ryū
9. Relation between Daito and Sekiguchi
10. Yukimitsu Kano, Judo Daijiten, 1984
11. Raisuke Kudo, Isogai Hajime no Maki: Mataemon no Gajo ni Kirikon da Isogai, Tokyo Sports, May 25, 1973
12. Tsunetane Oda, Judo Manabu Hito no Tame ni, 1950
13. Judo History 8

There is also the Great Japan Judo History
There is also Tani's Game of Jiu-JItsu
There is also EJ Mas article on Tani
There is also an primary source article of Miyake describing Jiu-Jitsu in Japan