The Pharmacist's Corner

[wyandotterph]

This has turned into an interesting thread.

To Mr. Burt "romi" Simon, I wasn't trying to imply that I was the smartest or most knowledgeable fish in this pond -- far from it, my friend. My point was that despite the years of schooling I've had and the massive amount of educational debt that burdens me to no end, I find myself oftentimes humbled by the wellspring of knowledge that flows forth from these boards. I'm learning new things all the time, and if someone wants to call me names while I'm doing it, I'm fine with that.

No debt here, I got lucky. Earned a scholarship to college, so only had to pay for the last 2 years of pharmacy school. Been practicing as a pharmacist since 2000, so I could afford to pay for MPH/MBA school.

That being said I am in debate over if I want the BIG debt of medical school. I took my MCAT, and currently contemplating the plunge, but according to TrainerX I guess thats stupid because I could learn just as much reading on the internet :icon_lol:

 

[turbozed]

That being said I am in debate over if I want the BIG debt of medical school. I took my MCAT, and currently contemplating the plunge, but according to TrainerX I guess thats stupid because I could learn just as much reading on the internet :icon_lol:

I think you actually CAN learn just about anything theoretically on the internet if you're resourceful enough. The information is pretty much all out there.

 

[wyandotterph]

I think you actually CAN learn just about anything theoretically on the internet if you're resourceful enough. The information is pretty much all out there.

But would u go to that doctor? lol:icon_chee

 

[Sinister]

I have to admit, the most absurd Medical Professionals I've ever seen had the most academic credentials. A friend of mine works for a physiologist right now (he's a physiologist as well, but isn't the head of his Lab) who is so Hell-bent on a theory he's working on that he's formed the habit of dismissing dispelling data (which exploration of could lead to MORE compelling data than the foundation theory), or omitting information that doesn't directly support his theory. I like to call this "legacy syndrome"...because that's what the guy wants. And in order to stay competitive he HAS to believe he is the best and smartest around in his field, but he's beginning to manufacture the data that proves so, and none of his subordinates can say boo about it.

At the very least the Juniors who aren't subject to hero worship of their Seniors in their respective fields are still open to being wrong. From everything scientific I've ever read, the bulk of great discoveries were made on account of monumental failures, as opposed to successes. Thus, if I encounter someone who approaches a subject with the perspective of that their right from the onset, it's pretty clear any exploration of possible undiscovered information isn't going to happen and the discourse is then void.

 

[wyandotterph]

I have to admit, the most absurd Medical Professionals I've ever seen had the most academic credentials. A friend of mine works for a physiologist right now (he's a physiologist as well, but isn't the head of his Lab) who is so Hell-bent on a theory he's working on that he's formed the habit of dismissing dispelling data (which exploration of could lead to MORE compelling data than the foundation theory), or omitting information that doesn't directly support his theory. I like to call this "legacy syndrome"...because that's what the guy wants. And in order to stay competitive he HAS to believe he is the best and smartest around in his field, but he's beginning to manufacture the data that proves so, and none of his subordinates can say boo about it.

At the very least the Juniors who aren't subject to hero worship of their Seniors in their respective fields are still open to being wrong. From everything scientific I've ever read, the bulk of great discoveries were made on account of monumental failures, as opposed to successes. Thus, if I encounter someone who approaches a subject with the perspective of that their right from the onset, it's pretty clear any exploration of possible undiscovered information isn't going to happen and the discourse is then void.

LOL i agree 100%, there are a lot of medications that come as a result of accidents as well.
viagra-found by accident
Minoxidil- found by accident
Penicillin- another whoopsie


There are numerous books on the topic as well.

By the way who was that directed towards?

 

[turbozed]

But would u go to that doctor? lol:icon_chee

Well that touches upon undercurrents in this thread actually. Knowledge isn't the same as certification and credibility. And, while certification achieves credibility and indicates knowledge (helpful to people seeking advice or treatment), it's not the only road to knowledge. When two knowledgeable people get into a debate, whether one has certifications and credibility (the indicators of knowledge) should go out the window and the arguments should stand on their own.

I'm a lawyer and I know more about law than the average person. But if a layman has been studying a particular area of law for a long time, there's a good chance that he knows more about the subject than I do. It's rare to find a lawyer that knows a lot about every field (it's just too much information to take in). Yeah, he won't be able to get clients or argue in court, but in the neutral anonymity of the internet forums, our arguments stand on their own.

I think it's great that you're sharing your knowledge and giving advice. It probably feels shitty when giving advice if someone starts questioning you. Just realize that, for the most part, this board cares little about debates between e-personas. Nobody here is against established medicine/nutrition per se, but against a dogmatic lack of inquiry that sometimes happens with bliind adherence to unproven doctrines. This is a board that cares about underlying mechanisms; the why instead of how.

 

[XTrainer]

This thread has moved along a lot since I left for work this morning...instead of reading all those posts, I'm just going to assume they're all saying "DON'T DO THIS!

 

[romistrub]

To Mr. Burt "romi" Simon

Slow down, there, Dan Brown. My name is Romi "romi" Strub. Look me up on facebook. I'm a real boy!

I wasn't trying to imply that I was the smartest or most knowledgeable fish in this pond [..] I find myself oftentimes humbled by the wellspring of knowledge that flows forth from these boards. I'm learning new things all the time, and if someone wants to call me names while I'm doing it, I'm fine with that.

Acknowledging your ability to learn from others isn't virtuous in my mind in the sense that not being racist is not virtuous: I think it's part of the baseline for being a reasonable human being.

Just think of me as a guy with a monocle and a beer hat, and you've got me pegged.

 

[romistrub]

I think you actually CAN learn just about anything theoretically on the internet if you're resourceful enough. The information is pretty much all out there.

I used to believe this. There's a point when you start editing wikipedia articles for poor exposition (after finding the information elsewhere) that it becomes clear how inadequate the internet is. "Variance and covariance in vectors" was my first. Traumatizing.

 

[XMoker]

I think if this topic was in the grain of, "hey, I'm a pharmacist, shoot me some questions about pharmacy" this would be a valuable thread. A thread covering things like drug interactions, dosages and timing, "why is my painkiller making me itch," minor injury treatment, "which otc does what better," and the things the op was primarily trained in would be quite the asset to have. I'm not trying to downplay or be trite about pharmacy here, I genuinely think this would be a cool resource. Perhaps I've oversimplified it, though.

But, this happens every time someone who isn't (or is but improperly/inadequately) trained in the sports/performance nutrition field offers a Q&A here.

For Christ sakes this thread started with

Hey guys figured I would offer my services. I am a licensed pharmacist in Michigan, and I hold the following degrees

B.S. Pharmacy Wayne State University
MPH The University of Michigan
MBA The University of Michigan
Pharm-D Idaho State University

Any questions on supplements hit me up, I will be more than happy to answer them for you.

and two months ago...

NOXplode...Got a Jar of it...kinda precautious when I cant find the ingredients and it says proprietary blend. lol.

Any ever use it and have success?

At least you were skeptical.



I like this thread, perhaps for a different reason, and I'm glad it hasn't been locked. This thread shows an example of the root of why I like this board so much. Hard for me to explain though. The whole "My doctor, the AHA and everybody knows X" vs "It may go against conventional wisdom, but according to this, Y looks more plausible" clash. Still not explained well... hopefully you get the jist of what I mean.

 

[romistrub]

I'm a lawyer

I've been trying to figure you out. That explains everything. :icon_chee

Nobody here is against established medicine/nutrition per se, but against a dogmatic lack of inquiry that sometimes happens with bliind adherence to unproven doctrines. This is a board that cares about underlying mechanisms; the why instead of how.

This excerpt confuses the hell out of me. Professionals are also against dogmatic adherence to unproven doctrines. The argument lies in what constitutes proof, and hence I think (and I believe this has been mentioned before) that there is a necessary discrepancy between those whose primary concern is others and those whose primary concern is themselves.

To make another comparison, pharmacists don't (as far as I know) adopt "clients" in the way nutrition coaches do, and they certainly aren't focused on optimizing athletes.

In short, we cannot expect Wy to reiterate what we've learned from coaches or from ourselves, especially regarding things like dosage. What we can expect is that Wy provide us with more than allusion when issuing advice. I don't think this can be emphasized enough.

Something else important is the liability factor. Professionals are liable for the advice they give (hence the high pay), although I'm not certain whether this is relevant "off-the-clock" or not.

 

[romistrub]

and two months ago...

Holy hell. I'm going to give Wy the benefit of the doubt, but this speaks volumes.

 

[Stormbringer]

I used to believe this. There's a point when you start editing wikipedia articles for poor exposition (after finding the information elsewhere) that it becomes clear how inadequate the internet is. "Variance and covariance in vectors" was my first. Traumatizing.

Yeah, one day it might 'all' be online, but when you start getting deeper (higher undergraduate-level or beyond) into the sciences, the internet becomes very highly unreliable (not necessarily because of too much wrong data, but mostly absent data). At least, that's what I found...but this was around 4 years ago when I graduated, so it might be a little better these days...but I doubt it.

 

[XTrainer]

I think if this topic was in the grain of, "hey, I'm a pharmacist, shoot me some questions about pharmacy" this would be a valuable thread. A thread covering things like drug interactions, dosages and timing, "why is my painkiller making me itch," minor injury treatment, "which otc does what better," and the things the op was primarily trained in would be quite the asset to have. I'm not trying to downplay or be trite about pharmacy here, I genuinely think this would be a cool resource. Perhaps I've oversimplified it, though.

But, this happens every time someone who isn't (or is but improperly/inadequately) trained in the sports/performance nutrition field offers a Q&A here.

For Christ sakes this thread started with


and two months ago...

At least you were skeptical.



I like this thread, perhaps for a different reason, and I'm glad it hasn't been locked. This thread shows an example of the root of why I like this board so much. Hard for me to explain though. The whole "My doctor, the AHA and everybody knows X" vs "It may go against conventional wisdom, but according to this, Y looks more plausible" clash. Still not explained well... hopefully you get the jist of what I mean.

Haha that's pretty funny, just goes to show the extent to which everyone DID give him the benefit of the doubt.

Good post in general, too. I just wish it was more of a discussion and less of a clash.

 

[joshetc]

Im sorry if you fell that way, I really did not disagree with you on the lovaza thing. Yes it is FDA approved for a higher dose than 1gm, but I also told him that that was in addition to what he gets in his diet. I was not disagreeing with you at all. Your point was well taken, but I was concentrating on his diet, and adding fish oil as a supplement. I should have been more clear with stating 1gm of EPA/DHA, as opposed to stating 1gm of Fish Oil, and I do apologize for that. Furthermore my 1gm dose is what The American Heart Association has stated should be taken in a day to maintain a healthy heart/cholesterol. I am not trying to basically shit on your education, but credibility is very important when making medical claims. Im sure you are an excellent technician, but just because Lovaza is FDA approved doesnt mean that that is the dose for everyone. You know that, look on your shelf at the folic acid 1mg, it is fda approved but does everyone get that dose?

No, they shouldn't. You're exactly right. I mean, it is a semi-unfair comparison cause 1mg of folic acid is a lot more than found in food sources (compared to omega 3s.. a 3oz serving of salmon has over 2g omega 3s) but I understand your point.

Honestly I pretty much agree with you, my only real peeve is that people shouldn't have to agree with pharmacists by default. Everyone is very well suited to hear out their pharmacist and research their recommendation on their own to be sure it is right for them.

 

[DEVILsSON]

Great thread.

As someone already pointed out, the biggest reason why the thread got derailed was because the TS offered to provide advice outside of his area of expertise. Essentially created a logical fallacy...

"Argument From Authority:
the claim that the speaker is an expert, and so should be trusted.

There are degrees and areas of expertise. The speaker is actually claiming to be more expert, in the relevant subject area, than anyone else in the room. There is also an implied claim that expertise in the area is worth having. For example, claiming expertise in something hopelessly quack (like iridology) is actually an admission that the speaker is gullible"

followed closely by appeal to some type of authoritarian source like an organization ..rather than an argument per se...

Ultimately the thread came to 'do as little as possible to establish/reestablish the equilibrium/do no hard' vs optimization of performance/health/etc

I wonder how TS will reply after one of his older supplement posts got posted.....I guess we'll stay tuned.

 

[Sinister]

viagra-found by accident

Patient: "Hey Doc, yeah this stuff didn't do shit for my blood pressure, but lemme tell ya I got a hard-on that just won't quit!"

Doc: "Hmmm, hard-on you say? I think we can work with this."

By the way who was that directed towards?

No one particular. I'm looking at this as more of a campfire discussion amongst uber-nerds. But the moral of the story is that Academic achievement can be a double-edged sword. It can either imply vast Worldly knowledge and an inquisitive mind, or it can mean a mind more closed to new things than Nazi poon.

 

[XMoker]

Patient: "Hey Doc, yeah this stuff didn't do shit for my blood pressure, but lemme tell ya I got a hard-on that just won't quit!"

Doc: "Hmmm, hard-on you say? I think we can work with this."



No one particular. I'm looking at this as more of a campfire discussion amongst uber-nerds. But the moral of the story is that Academic achievement can be a double-edged sword. It can either imply vast Worldly knowledge and an inquisitive mind, or it can mean a mind more closed to new things than Nazi poon.

I think all the bases are covered here.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, I do all I can to assure quality from every angle.

 

[romistrub]

[..] the moral of the story is that Academic achievement can [..] imply vast Worldly knowledge and an inquisitive mind, or it can mean a mind more closed to new things than Nazi poon.

Strange wording, but damn, your arrow flies true, Sinister. It's the classic opposition between a sense of responsibility and a sense of authority, seen everywhere from teachers, the police force, superheros, militarymen, politicians, parents, and any other potential "brick in the wall" :icon_lol:.

Cool.