The Official Dragon Ball (Z, GT, S, etc.) Franchise Discussion Thread

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Spoiler for the upcoming arc

After the mini-arc with Hit, the next arc is the Multi-Universe tournament. This tournament is different as they have actual stakes...
The two Zenos will destroy any universe that loses. Also, there is a short trailer showing off manga pics of this upcoming arc and we get some glimpses of the other Gods of Destruction
 
Ending of Zamasu arc was quite disappointing. And also to rub it in, they follow up with some shitty kiddish filler episodes. I hope next one makes up for it.
 
@Horse Style
Thanks for spoiler tags. :) Really appreciate it.

Also, I read back the discussion that you and @DIABOLUS had. While I don't read the manga myself, I have heard people saying it's way more detailed than the anime for obvious reason. Especially for the Black Saga which explains alot of things that the anime didn't.

Humble opinion, we can't really lump both together now. In the past, anime is made AFTER the manga is done with fillers here and there to slow things down while the manga continues. Because they wishes to stay "cannon". But in the case of Super now, the anime is way ahead of the manga, which is unheard of. Will the manga now follow strictly on how the anime went storyline wise? Or will it change in the future, we do not know.

That said, despite understanding that Trunks being the sole protector of his timeline, I do not believe he is stronger than Goku, whether or not base form. Goku simply have FAR more fights than Trunks. The last fight for Trunks before Black was Dabura and he can train all he wants, off screen, but we all know DB logic is that Saiyan improves better with fighting. Goku went through Beerus and Golden Frieza in the meantime.

All I could think of why SSJ3 Goku was on par with SSJ Trunks in the manga is that Goku never ever go serious at first go. Even in the anime, Vegeta mentioned that to Trunks. I'm not sure if that is included in the manga.
 
@Horse Style
Thanks for spoiler tags. :) Really appreciate it.

Also, I read back the discussion that you and @DIABOLUS had. While I don't read the manga myself, I have heard people saying it's way more detailed than the anime for obvious reason. Especially for the Black Saga which explains alot of things that the anime didn't.

Humble opinion, we can't really lump both together now. In the past, anime is made AFTER the manga is done with fillers here and there to slow things down while the manga continues. Because they wishes to stay "cannon". But in the case of Super now, the anime is way ahead of the manga, which is unheard of. Will the manga now follow strictly on how the anime went storyline wise? Or will it change in the future, we do not know.

That said, despite understanding that Trunks being the sole protector of his timeline, I do not believe he is stronger than Goku, whether or not base form. Goku simply have FAR more fights than Trunks. The last fight for Trunks before Black was Dabura and he can train all he wants, off screen, but we all know DB logic is that Saiyan improves better with fighting. Goku went through Beerus and Golden Frieza in the meantime.

All I could think of why SSJ3 Goku was on par with SSJ Trunks in the manga is that Goku never ever go serious at first go. Even in the anime, Vegeta mentioned that to Trunks. I'm not sure if that is included in the manga.
They are already advertising the next arc in the manga so it's expected that the manga version of the future Trunks will end very soon and is much, much shorter than the anime version.

In regards to the Goku vs Trunks sparring match, in the manga Goku went SS God (red hair) to take down Trunks. It wasn't a case of him not being serious in SSJ3. He had to go to the next level to win.

The thing is, you simply cannot deny the SSJ3 Goku vs SSJ2 Trunks being equal and there can be no other conclusion that Trunks's base form is stronger. Yea Goku has done this and that but the simple logic in regards to the different multipliers of the SS levels, it would make 0 sense that Goku's base form is stronger than Trunks yet the 400x multiplier of SSJ3 couldn't edge out only the 100x multiplier of SSJ2.

I'm sorry but there is no other way around it. Trunks base form is stronger. It also helps explain why Trunks was keeping up with everyone during the fights with Black and Zamasu.
 
@Horse Style
Again, it's my opinion that we can't use the multipliers calculation we had from DBZ and apply it on Super again. DBZ ended over 20 years ago. I'm not sure if they even mentioned exact numbers for these multipliers since Super released, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. They only refreshed our memories that there are SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 with each being better than the previous form.

Also, one of the main and biggest criticism on DB franchise have always been the power level. A reason why I believe scouter/power level have simply vanished after Freiza Saga because the number simply doesn't make sense anymore. So even logic within the DB franchise is out of whack most of the time. Normal human is power level 5. By the end of DBZ, even knocking into someone in the street should make their entire body break into pieces. Or simply farting for that matters.

I mentioned this couple of weeks back.
The Black Saga in DB universe shouldn't have taken more than 2 weeks, probably even just a week. Yet, the three Saiyans power jumped ridiculously. Someone countered because they were trained by Whis not Roshi anymore but that' just lazy explanation.

So In theory, if Goku and Vegeta powered up so much within this Saga, they would be able to beat Beerus seeing that Goku was on par with 50% Beerus when they first fight. But this simply isn't true.

We have to go step by step and take on how strong which character is when the series tells us, which is unfortunate, and not rely on DB logic anymore.

I'm in for the storyline now. Power level simply isn't something worth caring or debating imo.
 
@Horse Style
Again, it's my opinion that we can't use the multipliers calculation we had from DBZ and apply it on Super again. DBZ ended over 20 years ago. I'm not sure if they even mentioned exact numbers for these multipliers since Super released, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. They only refreshed our memories that there are SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 with each being better than the previous form.

Also, one of the main and biggest criticism on DB franchise have always been the power level. A reason why I believe scouter/power level have simply vanished after Freiza Saga because the number simply doesn't make sense anymore. So even logic within the DB franchise is out of whack most of the time. Normal human is power level 5. By the end of DBZ, even knocking into someone in the street should make their entire body break into pieces. Or simply farting for that matters.

I mentioned this couple of weeks back.
The Black Saga in DB universe shouldn't have taken more than 2 weeks, probably even just a week. Yet, the three Saiyans power jumped ridiculously. Someone countered because they were trained by Whis not Roshi anymore but that' just lazy explanation.

So In theory, if Goku and Vegeta powered up so much within this Saga, they would be able to beat Beerus seeing that Goku was on par with 50% Beerus when they first fight. But this simply isn't true.

We have to go step by step and take on how strong which character is when the series tells us, which is unfortunate, and not rely on DB logic anymore.

I'm in for the storyline now. Power level simply isn't something worth caring or debating imo.
The scouter thing stopped because the main fighters power levels wee going into the billions. It was much more simple to say "X is stronger than Y"

Even if you don't want to use multipliers, we know SSJ3 enhances your powers more than SSJ2. Period. If you agree with that statement (and you should), basic logic deems that if two fighters are fighting on par, one is SSJ3 and one is SSJ2, the SSJ2 guy's base form has to be stronger.

It's simple math. No other conclusion can possibly make sense. This isn't a "well so and so had these feats so yata yata", it's simple math. There is a reason Toriyama made it known that SSJ2 Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku. It's to show how powerful Trunks is.

You can talk about whatever inconsistencies you want but the only way base form Goku is stronger than base form Trunks after learning SSJ3 Goku = SSJ2 Trunks is to say that SSJ3 is somehow, someway a weaker power-up than SSJ2.
 
Also, the manga is definitely canon. History says so and the fact that they stretched out the Black saga in the anime says so. The only reason they stretch out fights and have filler in anime is to allow the manga time to catch up or prevent the anime from catching up.

A lot of the manga is the same as the anime but there are also a lot of the anime that is non-existent in the manga. I'm not talking about alterations to events (the Hit vs Goku fight was different in the manga). I'm talking about the anime completely adding things like Black following Trunks back in time and Goku sparring with Zamasu. There is a reason those are completely non-existent in the manga.
 
@Horse Style
Maybe so in that particular fight. I'm not going argue that because I haven't seen manga.

Reason why I bring out inconsistency is not to say Trunks cannot be stronger than Goku. I'm just saying, I won't be surprised should there is a near-future Epi be in the manga or anime that have Goku and Trunks fighting in base form, Trunks could lose.

Despite how many fans like Vegeta/Gohan to step up. Goku will always be the strongest by the end of the day. Nothing til now have convinced me otherwise. Goku could die in Epi 71/72 and make Ultimate Gohan back that much stronger. But before DBS ends, Goku would be back. Simply because the Japanese fans love Goku character so much more, probably more so than the series itself.

DB ended with Goku, DBZ ended with Goku flying off to train Uub. DBS will end with Goku doing something.

Also, you bringing up the tournament Saga reminded me that they actually explained why Vegeta lost to Hit in the manga. While in the anime it's seemly depict that Vegeta is so much worst than Goku.
 
@Horse Style
Maybe so in that particular fight. I'm not going argue that because I haven't seen manga.

Reason why I bring out inconsistency is not to say Trunks cannot be stronger than Goku. I'm just saying, I won't be surprised should there is a near-future Epi be in the manga or anime that have Goku and Trunks fighting in base form, Trunks could lose.

Despite how many fans like Vegeta/Gohan to step up. Goku will always be the strongest by the end of the day. Nothing til now have convinced me otherwise. Goku could die in Epi 71/72 and make Ultimate Gohan back that much stronger. But before DBS ends, Goku would be back. Simply because the Japanese fans love Goku character so much more, probably more so than the series itself.

Also, you bringing up the tournament Saga reminded me that they actually explained why Vegeta lost to Hit in the manga. While in the anime it's seemly depict that Vegeta is so much worst than Goku.
Goku is stronger than Trunks at max power because Goku can enter the God form. That much hasn't changed.

However, simple logic says Trunks's base form is stronger. I don't think they would have gone to the trouble of showing us that Trunks SSJ2 is equal to Goku SSJ3 if they were going to contradict themselves soon after.

A lot of the inconsistencies come from the anime taking liberties and adding things the manga didn't have, which why you have to go to the manga to see what's canon. The anime is a clusterfuck. The latest example is the whole timeline mess they introduced which, as of right now, not as confusing in the manga.

Another big clusterfuck that's anime only. SS Blue + Kaioken doesn't exist. Hit improving his time leap during battle didn't happen. This is a prime example of an anime-only detail messing with the power scale. Kaioken x10 should make SS Blue Goku more powerful than Beerus which makes it weird that Hit wasn't killed with one punch.

So if you want to stop with the power inconsistencies, go with the manga and don't take the anime additions too seriously.
 
@Horse Style
I'm way too lazy to read Mangas. I actually never read any Mangas. I don't even watch animes much with DB as the exception because it being nostalgic.

Most anime fans would have watched Gundam, One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, One Punch Man. None of it I've watched. DB is the only anime I watched that is over 30 Epis. I usually go for those 13 Epis anime as a teen. Elfen Lied, Serial Experiments Lain. Or films like Ghost in the Shell and Spirited Away.

As I mentioned within our discussion, I don't really care about power levels anymore. I'm in for the storyline. So it doesn't bother me much except for the occasional rant.
 
@Horse Style
I'm way too lazy to read Mangas. I actually never read any Mangas. I don't even watch animes much with DB as the exception because it being nostalgic.

Most anime fans would have watched Gundam, One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, One Punch Man. None of it I've watched. DB is the only anime I watched that is over 30 Epis. I usually go for those 13 Epis anime as a teen. Elfen Lied, Serial Experiments Lain. Or films like Ghost in the Shell and Spirited Away.

As I mentioned within our discussion, I don't really care about power levels anymore. I'm in for the storyline. So it doesn't bother me much except for the occasional rant.
I'm similar. I watched the DBZ anime growing up in the 90s. Don't watch much anime. The only mangas I've read besides DBS are Naruto, Bleach, Death Note and currently Attack on Titan. Attack on Titan and Death Note are good. Naruto/Bleach had a good start but eventually turned into nonsense.

I don't even like watching the anime because I know there is going to be filler and everything is going to be stretched out. Not to mention inconsistent animation.

I tried watching the Naruto vs Pain fight in the anime. Good lord that is hands down the worse animation ever. A 5-year old with finger paint could have done a better job.
 
I'm similar. I watched the DBZ anime growing up in the 90s. Don't watch much anime. The only mangas I've read besides DBS are Naruto, Bleach, Death Note and currently Attack on Titan. Attack on Titan and Death Note are good. Naruto/Bleach had a good start but eventually turned into nonsense.

I don't even like watching the anime because I know there is going to be filler and everything is going to be stretched out. Not to mention inconsistent animation.

I tried watching the Naruto vs Pain fight in the anime. Good lord that is hands down the worse animation ever. A 5-year old with finger paint could have done a better job.
The only thing I watch is DBS. I plan to rewatch Hunter X Hunter when I have the time. It's something I recommend. I honestly believe it's one of the best shounen anime ever and I think it's something you might enjoy. It starts off a bit slow but it picks up
 
Hit has to be one of my favorite new character so far and like in this episode we got to see different planet from the other universe
 
I'm similar. I watched the DBZ anime growing up in the 90s. Don't watch much anime. The only mangas I've read besides DBS are Naruto, Bleach, Death Note and currently Attack on Titan. Attack on Titan and Death Note are good. Naruto/Bleach had a good start but eventually turned into nonsense.

I don't even like watching the anime because I know there is going to be filler and everything is going to be stretched out. Not to mention inconsistent animation.

I tried watching the Naruto vs Pain fight in the anime. Good lord that is hands down the worse animation ever. A 5-year old with finger paint could have done a better job.

One Punch Man has some of the best animation I have ever seen

Genos vs Deep Sea King is the highlight for me

Worth a watch
 
I don't even like watching the anime because I know there is going to be filler and everything is going to be stretched out. Not to mention inconsistent animation.

DB Kai has no filler

Shows like Yu Yu Hakasho have zero filler



 
Spoiler for the upcoming arc

After the mini-arc with Hit, the next arc is the Multi-Universe tournament. This tournament is different as they have actual stakes...
The two Zenos will destroy any universe that loses. Also, there is a short trailer showing off manga pics of this upcoming arc and we get some glimpses of the other Gods of Destruction
wish this being true do u think u7 should rethink there top ten with certain 2 ppl they picked
 
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