the necessity of foreign aid

[IGIT]

hi Greoric and good morning,

Absolutely. There might be more property out there that's owned by groups of people than property owned exclusively by individuals, but co-ownership of a business is not communally owned. Return on investment is distinct and defined as are areas of responsibility and operation for its owner. That's not communal property, and neither is that community garden you mentioned.

a few posts ago, you said,

Property isn't communal dude, because it can't be tangibly utilized communally. Someone, or no one is going to be occupying and using property at any given time. It can never be owned or even decided over by everybody, because as soon as its used some people have more of a say than others.

i still don't understand why you don't think communal gardens aren't being "tangibily utilized communally".

Observe it next time you cross by. There's still property rights involved, however implicit they may be. If it were communal, it should be socially permissible for you to go in and rip up whatever plant is currenlty growing in the spot you'd like to tend to, right?

that would seem to be wrong to me, Greoric. the community working the plots of land have made mutually agreed upon laws for the use of the land by the community - is this sort of thing verboten for libertarians?

Of course even if it was permissible, you're still demonstrating that you're taking exclusive action on some secluded peace of dirt in the garden. The community isn't. You're still occupying that piece of dirt for however long you're there to the exclusion of everyone else, and therefore denying the concept that its communally owned to begin with.

Is there any room for peace with in the libertarian philosophy? My man. Peace is its central message. In fact, peace is the antithesis of what you're advocating. I think you're forgetting mate, that by supporting the state you're the one supporting violence. It's just hidden beneath a thin veneer of officialdom and illusory legitimacy.

The just outcome is to stop supporting that violence. That's it. The idea that we need to compel people under threat of arrest to fund services that we all want already is absurd. Frankly it should be immediately absurd to everyone including yourself if there wasn't the existing level of normalcy bias in society now.

what i was asking is this; are there cases (National Parks, community gardens, the Saranac Community Store) where a reasonable libertarian might concede that communal ownership can be a beneficial phenomenon?

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

The 10th amendment prohibits the federal government from going beyond its stated powers in the constitution. Which is exactly what the Acts you posted do.

Most important is the immorality of the practice. It is not charity. It is theft. If a thief steals your wallet, do you really care what he spends a portion the money on?

hello CC's left foot,

if you feel that Article 1 Section 8 and that has been misinterpreted by every President and congress since FDR - and you feel that the Foreign Assistance Act of 1948 and the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 are illegal...

hmmmf.

all i can say is that the last 13 Presidents disagree, as does congress for the last half century.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

"Die now, so that you're not an inconvenience later"?
Yeah, sounds pretty pro-choice to me, lol.

hello PrinceOfPain,

let's just see what Mr. Trump does. i'm curious as to what happens when his budget (which slashes foreign aid) sails into Congress.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said Tuesday that President Trump’s first budget was “dead on arrival” and wouldn’t make it through Congress.

“It's not going to happen,” said Graham, according to NBC News. “It would be a disaster."

Graham, a frequent Trump critic, expressed concerns with Trump’s proposed cuts to the State Department budget, especially the targeting of foreign aid.

then there's Senator Rubio on the matter;

“Foreign Aid is not charity,” tweeted Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.). “We must make sure it is well spent, but it is less than 1% of budget & critical to our national security.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/321576-gop-senator-trump-budget-dead-on-arrival

- IGIT

 

[Greoric]

hi Greoric and good morning,

a few posts ago, you said,

i still don't understand why you don't think communal gardens aren't being "tangibily utilized communally".

that would seem to be wrong to me, Greoric. the community working the plots of land have made mutually agreed upon laws for the use of the land by the community - is this sort of thing verboten for libertarians?

what i was asking is this; are there cases (National Parks, community gardens, the Saranac Community Store) where a reasonable libertarian might concede that communal ownership can be a beneficial phenomenon?

- IGIT

First, how did those people arrive at that agreement? Was it democratically? If so, that's not communal ownership. That's ownership of the majority.

Second, the parks aren't communally owned. They're owned by government, and why are they beneficial? Beneficial compared to what?

 

[CC's left foot]

hello CC's left foot,

if you feel that Article 1 Section 8 and that has been misinterpreted by every President and congress since FDR - and you feel that the Foreign Assistance Act of 1948 and the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 are illegal...

hmmmf.

all i can say is that the last 13 Presidents disagree, as does congress for the last half century.

- IGIT

I do think it has been purposely "misinterpreted". As has much of the constitution, including the commerce clause.

Trusting presidents and the congress to interpret rules which are meant to restrict them? Well, there is only one way that will turn out.

 

[Patrick F Carey]

no pro-lifers in this thread, i guess.

and there it is. the OP has been shown to be nothing more than a pathetic attempt at making a false equivilancey so he can call republicans hipocrits

honestly you seem smarter than this. its a poor attempt

 

[IGIT]

and there it is. the OP has been shown to be nothing more than a pathetic attempt at making a false equivilancey so he can call republicans hipocrits

honestly you seem smarter than this. its a poor attempt

hi Patrick F Carey,

like i said, no pro-lifers in this thread. its an observation that happens to be true.

many of you seem kind of joyous at the idea of dead africans.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

I do think it has been purposely "misinterpreted". As has much of the constitution, including the commerce clause.

Trusting presidents and the congress to interpret rules which are meant to restrict them? Well, there is only one way that will turn out.

hi CC's left foot,

the SCOTUS didn't intervene either.

how will it turn out? tell me.

are you going to storm the capital with your fellow libertarians, brandishing firearms?

it didn't happen when Nixon advocated for foreign aid it didn't happen with Ford did it, it sure didn't happen when Reagan did it, or HW Bush...or W Bush.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

hullo Greoric,

First, how did those people arrive at that agreement? Was it democratically? If so, that's not communal ownership. That's ownership of the majority.

maybe they all agreed and were in agreement on the bylaws for usage of the communal garden?

- IGIT

 

[Greoric]

hullo Greoric,

maybe they all agreed and were in agreement on the bylaws for usage of the communal garden?

- IGIT

Alright, let's suppose that's indeed the case. Are the planters planting their own crops there?

 

[IGIT]

Alright, let's suppose that's indeed the case. Are the planters planting their own crops there?

hi Greoric,

i've driven by one that one of my staff participates in. it looks like flowers and vegetables...hmm...

...sure, they're planting them for themselves.

- IGIT

 

[CC's left foot]

We all know that the precedents have been set and that nobody in power will respect the laws as intended. Nobody is going to storm anything, that would be suicide by cop.

Just because something is deemed legal doesn't make it moral or right. Which is my point.

hi CC's left foot,

the SCOTUS didn't intervene either.

how will it turn out? tell me.

are you going to storm the capital with your fellow libertarians, brandishing firearms?

it didn't happen when Nixon advocated for foreign aid it didn't happen with Ford did it, it sure didn't happen when Reagan did it, or HW Bush...or W Bush.

keep dreaming.

- IGIT

 

[Greoric]

hi Greoric,

i've driven by one that one of my staff participates in. it looks like flowers and vegetables...hmm...

...sure, they're planting them for themselves.

- IGIT

Right, so property rights are observed at the individual level...not the community's. The community could agree unanimously, though likely democratically for rules of conduct that seem fair, but that's not any demonstration for the utilization that community could have for the actual property involved. In fact, that utility by the community would be impossible, because as soon as anyone uses any of that land for himself or otherwise without full and explicit consent by a continuing unanimous vote... it's no longer communal land.

 

[IGIT]

We all know that the precedents have been set and that nobody in power will respect the laws as intended. Nobody is going to storm anything, that would be suicide by cop.

Just because something is deemed legal doesn't make it moral or right. Which is my point.

hi again CC,

i thought your point was that foreign aid is not something that's permitted by the constitution, when in reality under the current interpretation by congress, the executive branch, and the judicial...it is legal.

- IGIT

 

[Greoric]

hi again CC,

i thought your point was that foreign aid is not something that's permitted by the constitution, when in reality under the current interpretation by congress, the executive branch, and the judicial...it is legal.

- IGIT

Legal or not its fundamentally immoral.

 

[Madmick]

It's not necessary.

 

[AviatorShades]

If even half of the foreign aid money actually went to aid and led to dramatic birthrate reductions and investment into local infrastructure this would be a different topic. In reality you see a lot of lump sums mysteriously absorbed into a questionable government and never seen again. A good idea can be so open to manipulation and swindling that it ceases to be a good idea.

An analogy I would use is US welfare and how despite giving people free money, the tax payer has fewer rights than a regular employer (for example the right to demand routine drug testing or measure effort/productivity). Foreign aid leads to a situation where in order to know where the money is going you basically need imperialist levels of oversight.

 

[IGIT]

Right, so property rights are observed at the individual level...not the community's.

the individuals within the community agree on certain understandings (ie - i can't wander into someone else's plot and destroy what someone else is planting) mutually agree on some rules, yes.

The community could agree unanimously, though likely democratically for rules of conduct that seem fair, but that's not any demonstration for the utilization that community could have for the actual property involved.

the utilization comes when they plant things and reap the benefits (food for their kitchen or flowers just the aesthetic joy of flowers).

In fact, that utility by the community would be impossible, because as soon as anyone uses any of that land for himself or otherwise without full and explicit consent by a continuing unanimous vote... it's no longer communal land.

those who choose to be part of this community garden are members of the community. if you do not decide to join this community, you cannot wander into the communal garden and appropriate it for your own use.

the community can be very small, just a few gardeners on an acre of land, or bigger...the size of an entire town, like for the Saranac Community Store.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

It's not necessary.

hi Madmick,

i don't know if it is or isn't. alot of Republicans in congress seem to be very hostile to the idea of cutting foreign aid.

i'm wondering if Mr Trump has any idea what foreign aid is for, you know? i have an easy time picturing him having a long heart to heart with members of Congress or his Generals and reversing himself on this one.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

If even half of the foreign aid money actually went to aid and led to dramatic birthrate reductions...

hi AviatorShades,

the main thrust of foreign aid is not really to truncate a nation's population.

the highlight of President W. Bush's initiative to distribute foreign aid to Africa isn't that it dramatically lowered birthrates, it was that he saved lives.

(CNN)

-- A legacy of President George W. Bush will be that he saved 10 million lives around the world.

His critics ignore it, but name another president about whom one can say that with such certainty. It is what historians will say a decade from now looking back.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/15/frist.bush/index.html?iref=nextin

- IGIT