The knee thread!

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by shincheckin, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Lucas Coradini

    Lucas Coradini Blue Belt Professional Fighter

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2009
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Porto Alegre, RS, Brasil
    Yes, I did post it some time ago. Thanks for the words, man
     
    shincheckin and Sano like this.
  2. Silver tongue samurai

    Silver tongue samurai Ronin

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    807
    Location:
    ON, Canada


    All awesome things but 2:30 for the knees
     
    Lucas Coradini and shincheckin like this.
  3. Hotora86

    Hotora86 Movember Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    11,165
    Likes Received:
    13,089
    Location:
    Land of Po
    Below is an old instructional vid on knees which I learned from back when I was still a complete noob (and in Karate, not MT). Wondering if it's actually any good? :D

     
    shincheckin likes this.
  4. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,377
    Likes Received:
    3,665
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Oh definitely not. If I couldn't knee I'd probably just switch to Western boxing.
     
    shincheckin and AndyMaBobs like this.
  5. Silver tongue samurai

    Silver tongue samurai Ronin

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    807
    Location:
    ON, Canada


    Any pros/cons of being a shorter knee fighter? (Video kinda describes muay khao as a knee and clinch dominant style with elbows and sweeps) typically a taller fighters game,no?
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  6. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    762
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    I can't really see advantage about been a shorter knee fighter, but that doesn't mean you can't make it work...
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  7. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    2,195
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    tbh most of the knee fighters that I can think of off the top of my head are shorter. Shorter in the clinch + lower COG = profit
     
  8. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    2,195
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    These videos have a very MMA style of Muay Thai, but its perfectly valid - just not the way that I would demonstrate it
     
    Hotora86 and shincheckin like this.
  9. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    762
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    We had this conversation before, and I still cannot agree with you. I cannot agree that been a shorter fighter is an advantage for clinching or kneeing. You can make it work, and you can be very good at it, not thanks to been shorter, but despite of it.
     
    Tayski, aerius and shincheckin like this.
  10. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,377
    Likes Received:
    3,665
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Huh, who are you thinking of? When I think of knee fighters guys like Dieselnoi, Petchboonchu, and Lamnamoon come to mind. All fairly tall (or gigantic if you're Dieselnoi) for their weight classes. I can think of some shorter clinch experts like Yodkhunpon, but they're mostly elbow experts.
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  11. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    2,195
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Rambaa Somdet, Boraphet Pinsinchai, Sylvie, although I will admit that I remember Petchboonchu being shorter than he actually is. To use an MMA example I'd also say that Mighty Mouse is always the shorter man.

    Whether you think it's despite being shorter is neither here nor there, being shorter is an advantage in grappling - and that's precisely what clinching is. Rambaa being two foot tall is precisely the reason he was good at the clinch, and the dude says so himself. Shorter = lower COG, usually more muscular for your division, better leverage to off balance with - height only really matters in clinching when its Wladimir just leaning on someone in a setting in which he's not allowed be thrown.

    Keep in mind I say this as a guy doing combat sambo as well.
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  12. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    3,374
    Likes Received:
    2,573
    although extremely boring, i agree with everything in this vid
     
    Hotora86 and AndyMaBobs like this.
  13. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    3,374
    Likes Received:
    2,573
    IMO being a shorter fighter is a disadvantage just about everywhere, including the clinch.

    @AndyMaBobs

    Ramba is small, but wasnt he average size for his weight? i havent watched or studied him extensively outside of most of his highlights and a few fights here and there, but I was under the impression he was more of a kicker and puncher than clincher.
     
    Tayski likes this.
  14. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    2,195
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Nah he was usually smaller. He's good all around, punching and kicking but he describes himself as a knee fighter
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  15. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,377
    Likes Received:
    3,665
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    I'd say that's an over generalization. Being shorter makes you harder to take down, and makes it easier to get under people's hips, (both really important for most takedown oriented grappling styles), but those facts are much less relevant to clinching in MT than in wrestling, Judo, or Sambo. The pluses of being a taller grappler, namely the ability to frame with better leverage, move people around with underhooks and overhooks, and create separation when you're losing a grapple are more relevant than they are in grappling sports. Add to that the obvious advantage of being more easily able to reach the ribs, liver, and head with your knees and I think it's definitely better to be a taller guy for MT clinching.

    FWIW I do think that grappling sports the script flips and the tall guy advantages are not as useful as the short guy advantages.
     
    shincheckin and aerius like this.
  16. wstewart

    wstewart White Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    17
    Thanks for this video. I'm really only starting to understand the clinch myself. I could see how the other guy was trying to off balance you to setup his knee strikes. He also looked taller than you on the outside but seemed to try to get a lower center of gravity when clinching. I hope that means I'm at least beginning to understand clinch fighting.
     
    Lucas Coradini likes this.
  17. aerius

    aerius Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,518
    Likes Received:
    9,400
    Location:
    YYZ
    I'd have to disagree here. All the good clinch/knee fighters I can think of are on the tall side, Dieselnoi obviously, but also Lamnammoon, Petchboonchu, Yodwicha, Sagetdao, and Namsaknoi among many others. I mean, let's look at Saenchai for example, he regularly clowns foreigners in the clinch and has a very good clinch game himself yet he was soundly beaten in the clinch by the latter 4 fighters listed above. They were all able to use their height & reach advantage to get clinch control against Saenchai and work him.

    Height & reach are advantages. Longer arms gives you more & better ways to tie up while still keeping enough space to land knees. A tall lanky fighter can get a full body lock on you and still have enough space to get his hips back to knee. A short fighter will not only not have the space, he also won't have the angle since he needs to bring his knees up higher to land, which in turn requires more space, which he doesn't have because his arms are too short to provide that space if he wants to keep a secure grip to control the clinch.
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  18. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    762
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    @AndyMaBobs

    Common man... You can't compare grappling to clinching...
    As Uchi Mata said, there are so much disadvantages in the clinch for a shorter guy, that the few advantage you name, make no difference.
    I agree with the more muscular and the lower COG, but not with the better leverage... Most of the times you can't even have proper footing against taller guys in the clinch. You may be both on your toes as proper clinch technique, but you are in the edge, on the tip of your toes while he is more stable. There is no way I can accept that you have better control of the head against a taller opponent vs a shorter.
    You may only have advantage on the under-hooks, but that position is so limited... Open to elbows, and no elbows for you. Double unders is mostly to stall the clinch to make the referee reset the fight.
    Plus it's a huge advantage for the knees, and something a lot of people forget, is the advantage for the elbows too... You got no real power on the horizontal ones when you strike higher than your proper chin... Also you can't really use the horizontal/downward ones to the eyebrows for the cut...

    I really can't agree with you there.

    Edit: + what aerius said.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
    shincheckin likes this.
  19. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    2,195
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Keep in mind the clinchers Saenchai lost to were significantly heavier than him also.
    In truth though if you're going for proper Thai clinching you shouldn't be aiming just to hold on to the head, use your own head to get under theirs, underhook and whizzers do the rest. Stand up grappling IS clinching - they work the same way - I don't know if you've wrestled before Arize but they're much closer than you're thinking. It's worth mentioning as well that low COG helps with a lot of muay thai legal throws that westerners typically just do not do.

    It's less that clinching isn't good for short people, and more that clinching the way westerners tend to clinch isn't a good approach for short people (or at all :p )

    Don't get me wrong trying to clinch someone 7 inches taller than you isn't a great idea, but you're not likely to ever fight a guy that much taller than you. The difference of 3 inches doesn't matter much at all.
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  20. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    762
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    I have little experience with it, nothing much... For me, the feeling is very close, but not the stance... There is a reason why for every wrestling type (judo, bjj, grecoroman, freestyle), the main stance is to be low. (don't know the proper term). Knees bend, waist bend forward etc... you look to be the shorter guy. In MT, you fight tall, specially in the clinch you have to be taller, on your toes... That's basic clinch stance 101.

    Again, to be clear, I'm not saying a short guy cannot dominate a tall guy in the clinch. We all know how it goes when a 2m KBoxers start clinching work in Thailand against a 14y old, 1m60 boy... He get ragdolled. But that's not because he is taller... that's because he doesn't know shit about clinching.
     
    shincheckin likes this.

Share This Page