The kickfighting establishment is rotten to the core

[Thycidides]

This thread would have been way better if we just left it at "You sound poor."

To be honest this thread is pretty funny, I love these Mauy Thai vs the world threads, there is more passion and emotion than a lot of fights

 

[Snubnoze707]

But...but he doesn't train at Sitsongpeenong or Banchamek, just a lousy"stadium muay thai"camp. How can this be?

Ya dude I'm not Jaymuaythai and never claimed that. There are plenty of gyms that have excellent boxing programs in Thailand. I think the only place we differ is you seem to project that this is across the board and there is no need to shift towards more punch oriented training when fighting in Kickboxing. It's different when you are facing offence that is primarily punches versus what is seen in the stadiums minus a few exceptions. That doesn't mean that you can't offset that with a round kick spam game or in the case of Jomthong just out box these guys, but adjustments in training for a different platform is certainly good gameplanning.

 

[jj manchester]

It's clearly Tim Hughes...

Impossible; Tim Hughes is a man of gravitas and distinction; he would not frequent these kind of premises.

 

[jj manchester]

I have never contacted or written about you on anywhere other than this forum. You can not produce anything otherwise and it is just one of your many lies you can not help repeating

god DAMN you are fucking stupid. Is English your first language???

I said you have REFERENCED other platforms on here, you imbecile. You have talked about my twitter and my BloodyElbow articles in posts you have made ON HERE

ON. HERE.
YOU HAVE REFERENCED OTHER PLATFORMS ON. HERE.

Is that clear enough for you?

Jesus christ, how do you even operate a fucking computer with your level of IQ?

Here is an example of you referencing me on other platforms, which you posted IN THIS FUCKING THREAD.

... your so fucking smart you tweet them all out from your personal twitter....

Twitter is another platform, it is separate to Sherdog MT Forum is it not??

You need help, for real. You are so agenda-driven it is clouding your tiny mind with little pink clouds of rage that you then mash into a keyboard. You can't even remember what you say in your own posts.

What size shirt are you? I'm guessing either XS or Basement-Dweller XXL? I am going to email GLORY and see if they will post you a t-shirt, cheer you up a bit. One from GLORY 18 OKLAHOMA.

 

[verrix]

This is getting ridiculous

It might be a common misconception among dutch/moroccan fans that thais can't punch but nobody in this forum is saying that, but you just keep on insisting that they do.

But as i said before being a good boxer doesn't necessarily make you a good kickboxer or a good nak muay. Yeah Jomthong has better boxing than most kickboxers and most nak muays, yet he still got knocked down by Kongsak, Qui Jian Liang and Superbon or dominated by Pakorn after having focused on boxing.

Do you not agree with any of these points below?
- There are more good boxers with a muay thai background than with a kickboxing background

-When thais go to kickboxing they should train their hands in particular for kickboxing, regardless if they come from a boxing background or a muay thai background.

-Many nak muays instinctively prefer to kick from the outside, and clinch on the inside instead of trading punches when they just start out in kickboxing, regardless if they have boxing skills or not, and have to get used to not clinching in order to avoid point deductions in kickboxing.

Any real fans should be able to recognize these patterns. If you don't, then you're either lying or lying to yourself.

This is perfectly reasonable, but the argument started with "well actually thais do have bad boxing/weak hands," which is just a stupid narrative. What you're saying is an obvious truism - when an athlete switches sports they have to adapt to the new one, even if some of their skills carry over. If a kickboxer tries MMA and doesn't look good on the feet, nobody says they have shitty kickboxing (at least until they rematch in kickboxing and get KO'd again lol) - the problem is that they didn't transition well, or they were scared of the takedown, or whatever. Same thing should apply when a thai goes to kickboxing, but that isn't what happens.There's a huge difference between "thais have to figure out how boxing works in kickboxing if they want to be successful in kickboxing" and "thai fighters can't box."

This thread is still dumb af and jt should do something more productive tho

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

This is perfectly reasonable, but the argument started with "well actually thais do have bad boxing/weak hands," which is just a stupid narrative. What you're saying is an obvious truism - when an athlete switches sports they have to adapt to the new one, even if some of their skills carry over. If a kickboxer tries MMA and doesn't look good on the feet, nobody says they have shitty kickboxing (at least until they rematch in kickboxing and get KO'd again lol) - the problem is that they didn't transition well, or they were scared of the takedown, or whatever. Same thing should apply when a thai goes to kickboxing, but that isn't what happens.There's a huge difference between "thais have to figure out how boxing works in kickboxing if they want to be successful in kickboxing" and "thai fighters can't box."

This. And it's what I already said.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Ya dude I'm not Jaymuaythai and never claimed that.

Unfortunately, there are many posts on this thread which are indistinguishable from the stuff Jay says, or read exactly like my troll threads.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

What exactly had Buakaw achieved in Kickboxing (not Muay Thai) before getting invited to the K-1 World MAX 2004 Tournament?

Nothing, but neither did Schilt, Filiho or Hug.

There's no problem with Thais, you're really being ridiculous.

Even people who are now my sworn enemies have admitted that thais were and are not given opportunities proportional to nonthai muay thai fighters, not to mention MMA fighters and some of the demographics I brought up. So in that respect kickboxing clearly has a problem with thais that they don't have with others. I never said that thais don't get opportunities in kickboxing, and in fact they've been getting more recently, but they still don't get nearly as many as others do, despite the fact that they make better kickboxers than any other demographic.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I think the only place we differ is you seem to project that this is across the board and there is no need to shift towards more punch oriented training when fighting in Kickboxing.

But there is good reason to think that it is across the board. Look at the very long list of fighters I gave, from this generation, who compete in boxing. These guys come from all different camps and the only thing they have in common is that they train muay thai and boxing. They may not all be great or world level, but if they spend as much time boxing as they seem to, they probably aren't all that bad either; especially since the standard in question is Euro kickboxers.

And I never denied that someone who is coming from muay thai into kickboxing should train differently, that's obvious and I, already said as much.

 

[DastardlyMass]

god DAMN you are fucking stupid. Is English your first language???

I said you have REFERENCED other platforms on here, you imbecile. You have talked about my twitter and my BloodyElbow articles in posts you have made ON HERE

ON. HERE.
YOU HAVE REFERENCED OTHER PLATFORMS ON. HERE.

Is that clear enough for you?

Jesus christ, how do you even operate a fucking computer with your level of IQ?

Here is an example of you referencing me on other platforms, which you posted IN THIS FUCKING THREAD.



Twitter is another platform, it is separate to Sherdog MT Forum is it not??

You need help, for real. You are so agenda-driven it is clouding your tiny mind with little pink clouds of rage that you then mash into a keyboard. You can't even remember what you say in your own posts.

What size shirt are you? I'm guessing either XS or Basement-Dweller XXL? I am going to email GLORY and see if they will post you a t-shirt, cheer you up a bit. One from GLORY 18 OKLAHOMA.

Can you not fucking read? I have only refrenced stuff glory's twitter retweeted because that is all I have seen. You seem to not get it thru your head. All I have done is ask you if you receive money from glory?

The only one going around following someone is you. Literally more than 25% of the posts you have made in the last year have been in reference to myself

 

[Kanka]

Lol

 

[Yodsanan]

DastardlyMass & jj manchester

 

[Tayski]

Nothing, but neither did Schilt, Filiho or Hug.

Exactly. They all had 1 or 2 KB fights before being let in the world open tournament. So they got in the world open the exact same way.

Maybe you should try to understand promoting, marketing and commercialism a bit more before launching some crazy anti-Thai conspiracy theories.

There are more Thais signed in Kickboxing organisations than ever before at the moment, if anything it's only getting better.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Maybe you should try to understand promoting, marketing and commercialism a bit more before launching some crazy anti-Thai conspiracy theories.

So you're admitting that Thais don't get treated the same way as others, for the purposes of economics? Fine. But then why did you say that there was "no problem with thais"? And how am I perpetrating some kind of "crazy anti-Thai conspiracy theory"? You just admitted that there is a conscious effort to keep the number of thais down, for business purposes. I know that kickboxing doesn't want as many Thais in kickboxing as others, because they don't think that they'll sell or whatever. But this just makes kickboxing a less legitimate sport, which is selling it's soul for money.

There are more Thais signed in Kickboxing organisations than ever before at the moment, if anything it's only getting better.

I just said that, but that doesn't mean that they get the same opportunities as others. Although, why it makes greater economic sense for kickboxing organisations to sign more Thais now as compared to before is a mystery to me.

 

[Snubnoze707]

@jtwarwagon4life Could you please explain to me how you went from last week making a big stink about how people were idiots for wanting to see Thais fighting in Kickboxing to this week going 12 pages of massive text blocks complaining that not enough Thais are in Kickboxing? K thanks.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

@jtwarwagon4life Could you please explain to me how you went from last week making a big stink about how people were idiots for wanting to see Thais fighting in Kickboxing to this week going 12 pages of massive text blocks complaining that not enough Thais are in Kickboxing? K thanks.

I complained about people only caring, or at least caring far more, about Thais who compete in kickboxing and view them as special. Since what the elite fighters who fight in the stadiums do is much more impressive and difficult. I don't want to see lots of good thais getting pouched and ending up in kickboxing, that would be terrible. But that doesn't mean that the way the kickboxing establishment treats thais is worthy of praise, in fact very much the opposite.

For all I know, if more thais started to get opportunities in kickboxing, it might result in a greater clarity of perspective. People wouldn't have to see Buakaw and Sittichai as muay thai gods, who had accomplished something incredible by succeeding in kickboxing. Just another couple of thais who aren't any better than the guys who slave away in the stadiums to no recognition. Who knows, once that happened maybe people would start to give stadium fighters their due.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I complained about people only caring, or at least caring far more, about Thais who compete in kickboxing and view them as special. Since what the elite fighters who fight in the stadiums do is much more impressive and difficult. I don't want to see lots of good thais getting pouched and ending up in kickboxing, that would be terrible. But that doesn't mean that the way the kickboxing establishment treats thais is worthy of praise, in fact very much the opposite.

Ya I dont get it. You may have had a point like 10 years ago with K-1 and Buakaw but today Thais have gotten plenty of opportunities to see increased revenue fighting in Kickboxing. At the end of the day this is prize fighting and promotion based, this isn't the Olympics. This doesn't have to be "fair." If more Thais want to get into Kickboxing to have access to this increase in revenue it's on their management to make that happen, not the promoters.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Ya I dont get it. You may have had a point like 10 years ago with K-1 and Buakaw but today Thais have gotten plenty of opportunities to see increased revenue fighting in Kickboxing. At the end of the day this is prize fighting and promotion based, this isn't the Olympics. This doesn't have to be "fair." If more Thais want to get into Kickboxing to have access to this increase in revenue it's on their management to make that happen, not the promoters.

And that's why kickboxing isn't a real sport. I don't believe in realpolitik, sports should be merit based and the biggest leagues and promotions should strive to present all and only what is most representative of sporting excellence, in that particular sport.

 

[Snubnoze707]

And that's why kickboxing isn't a real sport. I don't believe in realpolitik, sports should be merit based and the biggest leagues and promotions should strive to present all and only what is most representative of sporting excellence, in that particular sport.

By that arguement MMA isn't a sport either. I could honestly give a fuck, and keep in mind Thais don't exceed 70kg. 70kg already has the best 70kg Thai, so really you only have one division in Glory that doesnt, even though they brought Pet in, and you can argue K-1 has one division that doesn't while their other division has Kaew who may or may not be the best at that weight but you can at least make an argument for him. You're really grasping for straws here.

 

[Tayski]

So you're admitting that Thais don't get treated the same way as others, for the purposes of economics? Fine. But then why did you say that there was "no problem with thais"? And how am I perpetrating some kind of "crazy anti-Thai conspiracy theory"?

You just admitted that there is a conscious effort to keep the number of thais down, for business purposes. I know that kickboxing doesn't want as many Thais in kickboxing as others, because they don't think that they'll sell or whatever. But this just makes kickboxing a less legitimate sport, which is selling it's soul for money.

The reason Thais do get signed in promotions like Glory is because of their fighting abilities, not because of their marketable personalities or the interesting interviews they provide. And they still get signed. If they would actually try to market themselves a bit more and have a bit more personality they'd probably get signed even more often. It's a show business after all.

If MMA is where it is today, it's not because it's still the raw fighting it was in the 90's, it's because of marketing and marketable fighters with interesting personalities who made the sport popular.

Kickboxing promoting is a business, and if you are not aiming at making money you will eventually go down and die as a business. Lack of money and financing is the number one factor of why a promotion would go down.

Although, why it makes greater economic sense for kickboxing organisations to sign more Thais now as compared to before is a mystery to me.

It's not complicated to understand. The real first big Kickboxing organisation with worldwide appeal was K-1 and was Japanese and they obviously did their hardest to appeal to the Japanese audience by having Japanese fighters at the top. They also hoped to show some type of supremacy instead of having only Thais winning, hence why back in the day they would have limited the number of Thais. Nowadays such propaganda doesn't exist as much, even though Glory does try to appeal to the American audience by promoting and pushing American fighters in their roster.

I could use the same argument against you and ask why a promotion like Thai Fight which is Thai doesn't sign Japanese fighters and keep the number of Japanese down.