The kickfighting establishment is rotten to the core

jtwarwagon4life

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Sittichai and Superbon are the two best fighters at 70kg, Kaew is the best fighter at 65kg and collectively you can make the case that they are the 3 best p4p fighters in kickboxing. If Petpanomrung wins the 65kg Glory belt, then basically all the major belts and tournament titles in kickboxing at 65kg and 70kg will be controlled by Thais. There are obviously other Thais, you know who they are, who are accomplishing good things in kickboxing as well, but the ones I've mentioned are sufficient to make my point. The point is that Thais (or at least Thais who were half decent muay thai fighters) make great kickboxers.

However, prior to the past 3 years or so about a decade since the 70kg divisions in kickboxing got running in earnest, only Buakaw would have warranted inclusion as a Thai who was accomplishing much of anything in kickboxing. However, as any of us with any common sense knew, this wasn't due to the fact that there weren't other Thais at the time who could've accomplished good results in kickboxing but was the result of political machinations to keep the Thais down. K1 and It's Showtime both had their wretched and discriminatory 1 Thai hiring policies, so that Buakaw was the only Thai who actually got consistent opportunities in major kickboxing promotions. And these policies continue to be applied today by both K1 and Glory, although Chinese promotions like Kunlun and Glory of Heros seem to be the happy exception amongst major kickboxing promotions. Although this may start to change as the "Thai slaves" narrative begins to gain momentum.

Although this is certainly a disgusting and embarrassing reflection on the kickboxing promotions themselves they do not bear the blame alone. Portions of the kickfighting community share a substantial amount of the blame. They played, and continue to play, a role in enforcing the status quo by the creation of false narratives, which regardless of the intentions with which they were conceived, have been used to justify the way Thais were and are treated. People within the kickfighting community, either journalist or people on forums or however, have claimed over and over, totally without evidence since Thais were almost never granted opportunities in kickboxing, that either there was no reason to think that the average Thai could succeed or that when bringing a Thai into kickboxing it was a big question mark. Look no further, for evidence of the pervasiveness of this false narrative, than Glory commentator Joseph Valtellini who brings it up every time he calls a fight involving a Thai. Stereotypes about the ways in which Thais, supposedly, fight serve to reinforce such notions. Since Thais, allegedly, can't punch, don't have footwork, don't move their head, etc., then of course they won't succeed in kickboxing. I need hardly add that such claims were almost never made about specific Thais or Thais who had fought in kickboxing but almost always about an abstract Thai boogeyman. And all Thais, allegedly, fight this way; they are completely homogeneous and without individuality. The label for this style of fighting is, of course, "traditional muay thai", in contrast to the "modern styles of muay thai" (dutch style, brazilian etc.) which, allegedly, are very effective. It should be obvious, given the success of fighters like Sittichai, Superbon, Kaew Fairtex that such stereotypes were in no way rooted in fact or, even if they were, have no relevance for determining whether someone will be a successful kickboxer or not. Of course many people already knew that what the upholders of the status quo were saying was bullshit and many of them said as much. In fact many people did and do go further and claimed that the reason for the policies to keep the Thais down was cowardice. And the reason for keeping the Thais out was that kickboxing promotions feared, with good reason, that the Thais would dominate their divisions, if they were given comparable opportunities to fighters from the Netherlands, Japan, America, Oceania etc. However, and this bring me to another point about the ways in which kickfighting community enforced the status quo through false narratives, there was and continues to be a significant effort to discredit people who criticise the kickfighting status quo. Although it amounts to little more than name calling, the critics of the status quo were singled out as being so biased and blinded by their love for the Thais that their criticisms weren't legitimate. These are the so called "Thai nuthuggers", "Thai elitists", "Thai fanboys", etc. Prior to the last couple of years it was often claimed that, since we had hardly seen any Thais had succeed in kickboxing, the whole idea that Thais would dominate kickboxing, if given the chance, was obviously the result of a strong bias. However, since at the time Thais were hardly ever given opportunities to prove themselves in kickboxing, it was very difficult for the "Thai fanboys" to refute such claims. Now, however, it seems pretty obvious that the fanboys are right and that Thais will dominate their weight classes in kickboxing, if given the chance, since they are already well on their way to doing so.

I think that kickfighting and combat sports journalist and analysts, who have perpetuated all of the false narratives in question at some time or other, need to be singled out for blame. Their position as, supposed, experts gives their opinions a degree of credibility greater than that of the ordinary kickfighting fan. However, it is also therefore incumbent upon them to actually do their homework and get the facts right. Not to perpetuate bullshit stereotypes which support even more bullshit hiring policies. It is my vein hope that those "experts" who have or continue to manufacture bullshit about muay thai will have their feet held to the fire or be subject to some form of sadistic, culture revolutionary style, "self criticism". In which they will be force to publicly recant their crimes against the Thais. If this happened I suspect that it could make real a difference in the future as to what kinds of opportunities Thai's were given in kickboxing. Let alone if it resulted in people in positions of influence making a stink about getting good Thais shots in kickboxing.
 
i had to sop following some important personalities of the italian scene alone whom despite the fact they own to MT and thailand their careers and business,show their sense of entitlement and superiority on a daily basis...and they are the good guys so to speak.

you're not saying anything new and even if things are progressively getting better I doubt we will ever see the day they will fully change. it's not about sport it's about a global sentiment and i'm not even going there.
 
Also, whenever a thai loses in kickboxing it's because of the flaws of the muay thai style but whenever a european style kickboxer loses it's because they didn't push the pace enough or whatever other reason.
 
I would have graded your paper 7/10 but instead you get a 5/10:

- it s a business and they package the product that they think will sell. Maybe it would sell less if 60% of the fights were given to Thais?
- you sound very emotional about this. It makes it abit hard to take you seriously.
 
god forbids someone is passioned about his (correct) opinions or *gasp* poor.
 
Sittichai and Superbon are the two best fighters at 70kg, Kaew is the best fighter at 65kg and collectively you can make the case that they are the 3 best p4p fighters in kickboxing. If Petpanomrung wins the 65kg Glory belt, then basically all the major belts and tournament titles in kickboxing at 65kg and 70kg will be controlled by Thais. There are obviously other Thais, you know who they are, who are accomplishing good things in kickboxing as well, but the ones I've mentioned are sufficient to make my point. The point is that Thais (or at least Thais who were half decent muay thai fighters) make great kickboxers.

However, prior to the past 3 years or so about a decade since the 70kg divisions in kickboxing got running in earnest, only Buakaw would have warranted inclusion as a Thai who was accomplishing much of anything in kickboxing. However, as any of us with any common sense knew, this wasn't due to the fact that there weren't other Thais at the time who could've accomplished good results in kickboxing but was the result of political machinations to keep the Thais down. K1 and It's Showtime both had their wretched and discriminatory 1 Thai hiring policies, so that Buakaw was the only Thai who actually got consistent opportunities in major kickboxing promotions. And these policies continue to be applied today by both K1 and Glory, although Chinese promotions like Kunlun and Glory of Heros seem to be the happy exception amongst major kickboxing promotions. Although this may start to change as the "Thai slaves" narrative begins to gain momentum.

Although this is certainly a disgusting and embarrassing reflection on the kickboxing promotions themselves they do not bear the blame alone. Portions of the kickfighting community share a substantial amount of the blame. They played, and continue to play, a role in enforcing the status quo by the creation of false narratives, which regardless of the intentions with which they were conceived, have been used to justify the way Thais were and are treated. People within the kickfighting community, either journalist or people on forums or however, have claimed over and over, totally without evidence since Thais were almost never granted opportunities in kickboxing, that either there was no reason to think that the average Thai could succeed or that when bringing a Thai into kickboxing it was a big question mark. Look no further, for evidence of the pervasiveness of this false narrative, than Glory commentator Joseph Valtellini who brings it up every time he calls a fight involving a Thai. Stereotypes about the ways in which Thais, supposedly, fight serve to reinforce such notions. Since Thais, allegedly, can't punch, don't have footwork, don't move their head, etc., then of course they won't succeed in kickboxing. I need hardly add that such claims were almost never made about specific Thais or Thais who had fought in kickboxing but almost always about an abstract Thai boogeyman. And all Thais, allegedly, fight this way; they are completely homogeneous and without individuality. The label for this style of fighting is, of course, "traditional muay thai", in contrast to the "modern styles of muay thai" (dutch style, brazilian etc.) which, allegedly, are very effective. It should be obvious, given the success of fighters like Sittichai, Superbon, Kaew Fairtex that such stereotypes were in no way rooted in fact or, even if they were, have no relevance for determining whether someone will be a successful kickboxer or not. Of course many people already knew that what the upholders of the status quo were saying was bullshit and many of them said as much. In fact many people did and do go further and claimed that the reason for the policies to keep the Thais down was cowardice. And the reason for keeping the Thais out was that kickboxing promotions feared, with good reason, that the Thais would dominate their divisions, if they were given comparable opportunities to fighters from the Netherlands, Japan, America, Oceania etc. However, and this bring me to another point about the ways in which kickfighting community enforced the status quo through false narratives, there was and continues to be a significant effort to discredit people who criticise the kickfighting status quo. Although it amounts to little more than name calling, the critics of the status quo were singled out as being so biased and blinded by their love for the Thais that their criticisms weren't legitimate. These are the so called "Thai nuthuggers", "Thai elitists", "Thai fanboys", etc. Prior to the last couple of years it was often claimed that, since we had hardly seen any Thais had succeed in kickboxing, the whole idea that Thais would dominate kickboxing, if given the chance, was obviously the result of a strong bias. However, since at the time Thais were hardly ever given opportunities to prove themselves in kickboxing, it was very difficult for the "Thai fanboys" to refute such claims. Now, however, it seems pretty obvious that the fanboys are right and that Thais will dominate their weight classes in kickboxing, if given the chance, since they are already well on their way to doing so.

I think that kickfighting and combat sports journalist and analysts, who have perpetuated all of the false narratives in question at some time or other, need to be singled out for blame. Their position as, supposed, experts gives their opinions a degree of credibility greater than that of the ordinary kickfighting fan. However, it is also therefore incumbent upon them to actually do their homework and get the facts right. Not to perpetuate bullshit stereotypes which support even more bullshit hiring policies. It is my vein hope that those "experts" who have or continue to manufacture bullshit about muay thai will have their feet held to the fire or be subject to some form of sadistic, culture revolutionary style, "self criticism". In which they will be force to publicly recant their crimes against the Thais. If this happened I suspect that it could make real a difference in the future as to what kinds of opportunities Thai's were given in kickboxing. Let alone if it resulted in people in positions of influence making a stink about getting good Thais shots in kickboxing.

wow ,,,, well start by saying most thai in 3 round fights do start fast enough ,,, second most thai have a curtain weight and the 95 kilos ,,, 85 kilos are really too big ,, yes you can argue 60 to 75 kilos they have more dominate showing due to number of fights ring experience, etc but to come out and say they should all be thai ,, not sure!!! in the kick boxing world their are some great fighters that can beat thai easy.. and once the weight goes higher it is harder and harder to find a good thai fighter. plus watching thai fighters who are not trained in kickboxing and clinch so much is so boring to watch ,, holding and knee shot to the side come on ,, that is not mauy thai nor kick boxing, to hammer Baukaw for his break threw work in K1 is totally unfair. his fights where exciting and he seems to excel in the modern kick boxing K1 style where other thai can not.. and hiring policies ,,, wow come on!!!! how many thai can draw a crowd out side their own country , so even to touch on this is somewhat mental ,, and if thai where so good how come none won k1 ,, lets see them fight semmy s. lol very one sided view ,, with lack of consideration to anyone or any organization outside Thailand. sorry they are not all the best ,,, in k1 style kick boxing ,, it is just fact jack..
 
I would have graded your paper 7/10 but instead you get a 5/10:

- it s a business and they package the product that they think will sell. Maybe it would sell less if 60% of the fights were given to Thais?

Based on what? Buakaw is one of the most popular kickboxers ever and Kunlun, who are pretty much the only organisation ever to sign a decent number of thais, is doing quite well as far as I know.
 
whenever a thai loses in kickboxing it's because of the flaws of the muay thai style but whenever a european style kickboxer loses it's because they didn't push the pace enough or whatever other reason.

The reaction when a thai loses just proves that they are the best by far. Buakaw/Sittichai/Kaew/Superbon can dominate consistently and it doesn't warrant much thought but when a Wanchalong/Petpanomrung/Sangmanee loses or even draws - often while being outgunned, undersized and fighting under rules catered against them - then it is huge news and part of some narrative.

The thais are treated as if they were the NY Yankees at MLB or Real Madrid at Spanish Football League - if they win it's just business, if they lose it's big news - which just proves their prominent position.
 
There are a whole lot of fake muay thai fans on here. You people who claim to love muay thai don't even raise a finger or complain at all about the Thais not getting a fair shake from the kickfighting establishment and are content to let knownothing "experts" slander Thai fighters publicly. Or even worse you actively try to discredit people, who make very legitimate criticisms of the kickfighting establishment's sick nonsense, by calling them "whiners" or "hipsters" or "fanboys" or "poor" (that's a new one) or elitists or whatever. Let it be known that these muay thai poseurs are very much enabling the rotten kickfighting status quo and are very much part of the problem. You people make me sick.

This thread has had the needed effect of enticing the snakes out of their lairs.


Homer-practises-whacking-day.jpg
 
There are a whole lot of fake muay thai fans on here. You people who claim to love muay thai don't even raise a finger or complain at all about the Thais not getting a fair shake from the kickfighting establishment and are content to let knownothing "experts" slander Thai fighters publicly. Or even worse you actively try to discredit people, who make very legitimate criticisms of the kickfighting establishment's sick nonsense, by calling them "whiners" or "hipsters" or "fanboys" or "poor" (that's a new one) or elitists or whatever. Let it be known that these muay thai poseurs are very much enabling the rotten kickfighting status quo and are very much part of the problem. You people make me sick.

This thread has had the needed effect of enticing the snakes out of their lairs.


Homer-practises-whacking-day.jpg


What about the children? Who will think of the children???
 
Based on what? Buakaw is one of the most popular kickboxers ever and Kunlun, who are pretty much the only organisation ever to sign a decent number of thais, is doing quite well as far as I know.

Buakaw had a spectacular style and was pretty much the only Thai.

Are we going to pretend like people in Europe would be as interested in kick boxing if most of these Dutch and Ukrainians & Co. were mostly replaced by Thais ?

I really doubt that. This has nothing to do with skills but with marketability.
 
I don't see how any rational thinking person can consider kickboxing to be a real sport. And I don't see how any rational thinking person can see kickboxing as anything less than a joke. What's worse is that many of kickboxing's most ardent fans, not mention it's mandarins, want it to continue to be a joke.

Kickboxing does not behave in the way that one would expect from a real sport. It clearly has no use for the values of fair play and competitiveness that would constitute some of the minimal requirements for somethings being a real sport. Although kickboxing has a mediocre talent pool, at best, it consistently refuse on principle to take advantage of the numerous readily available Thai talents that would significantly bolster it's ranks. Many kickboxing fans know this but most of them seem to be totally unbothered by it or worse when a minority of people complain (or even suggest) that kickboxing would benefit from bringing in these athlete kickboxing fan try to shout them down. Kickboxing fans and promoter are cutting off their nose to spite their face, in holding up the status quo. They don't, despite the fact that they claim to love the sport, want to see the best athletes available competing against one another. So they clearly don't want kickboxing to become a real sport and, whether they realise it or not, want it to continue to be a joke. Ironically by holding up the status quo, they are submarining the progress of the sport they claim to love.

The exact reasons behind this are somewhat hazy to me but there does seem to be an overwhelming fear of competition or comparison with muay thai. I think it is fair to say that kickboxing has a bit of an inferiority complex, not only with respect to muay thai but other combat sports as well. Kickboxing fans and promoters seem to be afraid that once the Thais are set loose upon the kickboxing world and dominate their weight classes, as they obviously would, people will be clued into the fact that muay thai has far and away to superior athletes and talent pool. And that once that happens people will just leave kickboxing for muay thai. I am not sure that this is a rational fear, I doubt that it is, but I think that it is real none the less.
 
Based on what? Buakaw is one of the most popular kickboxers ever and Kunlun, who are pretty much the only organisation ever to sign a decent number of thais, is doing quite well as far as I know.
Yeah, the justification that the Thais aren't marketable enough doesn't really cut it, not that it's a legitimate excuse in the first place. It's not like Serhiy Adamchuk or Chi Bin Lim are putting butts in the seats or eyes on the screen, certainly no more so than any good Thai would.
 
Does thailand have scouts that are looking for foreign kickboxing talent to fight in the stadiums?


There are a whole lot of fake muay thai fans on here. You people who claim to love muay thai don't even raise a finger or complain at all about the Thais not getting a fair shake from the kickfighting establishment and are content to let knownothing "experts" slander Thai fighters publicly.

Almost like they're two different sports.
 
Stop with your logic this is sherdog.

Boynazarov got paid like $300 to fight on the Dynamite card, they shoulda spent thousands just to fly in a legit Thai instead. First spend time to sift through the sport to see who would be worthy, deal with language issues, medicals...Coker Spike Viacom clearly just out to keep muay thai down.
 
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Does thailand have scouts that are looking for foreign kickboxing talent to fight in the stadiums?

Almost like they're two different sports.

No. To fight in the stadiums against credible fighters someone first has to show they're legitimate in May Thai.

Kickboxing is different in that it claims to represent all striking disciplines. What's the most influential striking discipline within kickboxing? Which country has more "kick fighting" talent than the rest of the world combined? Which country is not proportionally represented in kickboxing?
 
So if someone wants to see more thais in kickboxing they get bashed for it...

And if they don't, they also get bashed for it.

uh...
 
I think I've seen Thais in every Kickboxing event that I have watched this year so far...
 
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