The Cost of Pro-Life: US now has (by far) highest maternal death rate in developed world

[PainIsLIfe]

That report is 17 years old. Amnesty international has a lengthy report on the U.S. and they cover a wide range of relevant points. The usual stuff reasserts itself which is basically that poor women get lesser care and, for historical reasons, there are more poor minority women than poor white women.

Unintended pregnancies have worse outcomes and black women are 50% more likely to have unintended pregnancies than white women. But that doesn't explain why the maternal death rate is 400% higher for black women. 4x the chance of death is a helluva a difference when the unintended pregnancy rate isn't even 2x.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/files/pdfs/deadlydelivery.pdf

yes, I know it was an old report, but the latest cdc figures show virtually the same thing.

Maternity deaths are dramatically higher among minorities regardless of living in a red or blue state.

The cdc suggests it os do to hypertension, diabities, and heart issues among minorities.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I don't have a problem with it so long as this statistic is captured equally around the world.

It makes no sense that deaths from the flu account for 12% of maternal deaths in a 15 month period.

1 has nothing to do with the other.

 

[panamaican]

yes, I know it was an old report, but the latest cdc figures show virtually the same thing.

Maternity deaths are dramatically higher among minorities regardless of living in a red or blue state.

The cdc suggests it os do to hypertension, diabities, and heart issues among minorities.

Your link covers multiple explanations, including the AMA who say "quality of prenatal delivery and postpartum care, as well as interaction between health-seeking behaviors and satisfaction with care may explain part of this difference". The Amnesty international link goes into more of all of it.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Your link covers multiple explanations, including the AMA who say "quality of prenatal delivery and postpartum care, as well as interaction between health-seeking behaviors and satisfaction with care may explain part of this difference". The Amnesty international link goes into more of all of it.

I didn't post the cdc link.

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/pmss.html

But I'm sure those are all factors as well.

 

[JonesBones]

I see what you're saying about the man's culpability but the fact of the matter is its the woman's body, not the man's, and she ultimately, should she have access to an abortion, has the final say on whether she carries the baby all the way. So as far as I'm concerned she should bear most of the culpability, you know what they say about great and responsibility.

In other words, if it is her only her decision whether the child lives or dies, it is all on her to raise it. Why should a man pay on a woman's whim?

 

[usmctanker242]

So according to the post in OP it has NOTHING to do with abortion and is more to do with women having birth at older ages, unexpected pregnancies, and a prevalence for C-sections over natural birth.

"They died from cardiomyopathy and other heart problems, massive hemorrhage, blood clots, infections and pregnancy-induced hypertension (preeclampsia) as well as rarer causes. Many died days or weeks after leaving the hospital. Maternal mortality is commonplace enough that three new mothers who died, including Lauren, were cared for by the same ob/gyn.

The reasons for higher maternal mortality in the U.S. are manifold (SIC). New mothers are older than they used to be, with more complex medical histories. Half of pregnancies in the U.S. are unplanned, so many women don't address chronic health issues beforehand. Greater prevalence of C-sections leads to more life-threatening complications."

Something to note is the numbers count not only women who die during birth but up to one year after birth. Funny too is that the infant births has dropped to its lowest in recorded history.

"Yet the worsening U.S. maternal mortality numbers contrast sharply with the impressive progress in saving babies' lives. Infant mortality has fallen to its lowest point in history, the CDC reports, reflecting 50 years of efforts by the public health community to prevent birth defects, reduce preterm birth, and improve outcomes for very premature infants."

So this has to do with people not taking care of themselves or paying attention to their family medical history. The big thing here is the fad of C-Section when it's not medically necessary and it appears to be the leading cause of maternal mortality.
http://time.com/4508369/why-u-s-women-still-die-during-childbirth/

Lots of things are in motion here and to place the blame solely on a woman's inability to have an abortion is absurd.

 

[Islam Imamate]

And are you saying that the man should never care what choice she makes or how the legal system responds to her choice? He should be indifferent to the outcome. He shouldn't care if she aborts a child that he wanted? And he shouldn't care if he's paying child support for a kid he didn't want?

No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that even if he cares the decision whether or not to abort is ultimately up to the woman and the woman alone because she bears the cost of the pregnancy physically in a way the man does not.

As a result of the fact that she bears a higher physical toll from pregnancy and therefore ultimate decision making power I also expect that she exercise more precaution in avoiding unwanted pregnancies and I think she bears a higher culpability for whatever trouble she may face from unwanted pregnancies. In the end its her body on the line, not the man's, and so I expect her to look after herself.

In other words, if it is her only her decision whether the child lives or dies, it is all on her to raise it. Why should a man pay on a woman's whim?

No, it shouldn't be all on her to raise it but because she literally risks death when she decides to carry the child and has the ability to terminate the pregnancy I think its ultimately up to her to look after herself. If she ends up a single mother I put more blame on her than him though in the interests of the child I do also support wringing some child support from him.

 

[JonesBones]

No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that even if he cares the decision whether or not to abort is ultimately up to the woman and the woman alone because she bears the cost of the pregnancy physically in a way the man does not.

As a result of the fact that she bears a higher physical toll from pregnancy and therefore ultimate decision making power I also expect that she exercise more precaution in avoiding unwanted pregnancies and I think she bears a higher culpability for whatever trouble she may face from unwanted pregnancies. In the end its her body on the line, not the man's, and so I expect her to look after herself.

No, it shouldn't be all on her to raise it but because she literally risks death when she decides to carry the child and has the ability to terminate the pregnancy I think its ultimately up to her to look after herself. If she ends up a single mother I put more blame on her than him though in the interests of the child I do also support wringing some child support from him.

Abortion should not be framed as a health issue. The vast majority of women get abortions for social reasons not health reasons. They get abortions for the same reason I would. Cuz I can't even take care of myself and am irresponsible.

No human organism can own another human organism. It is not her property.

 

[Scheme]

Why are you pinning this on not having abortions vs. obesity?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Abortion should not be framed as a health issue. The vast majority of women get abortions for social reasons not health reasons. They get abortions for the same reason I would. Cuz I can't even take care of myself and am irresponsible.

I think you're right which is why if I see a single mom complain about being left by the guy I still blame her. You could've aborted it. Oh, you didn't think he'd leave? Maybe you shouldn't have carried the child of a man for whom you lacked the certainty of commitment. Couldn't afford an abortion? Didn't have access? Well, you took the risk knowing those things or being ignorant of them and paid for it.

No human organism can own another human organism. It is not her property.

Her womb is part of her body and the fetus needs that to survive. I don't think the fetus is entitled to the use of that womb. However, I don't believe in abortions in cases where the fetus is viable outside the womb.

 

[Islam Imamate]

BOOO!!!!

 

[panamaican]

No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that even if he cares the decision whether or not to abort is ultimately up to the woman and the woman alone because she bears the cost of the pregnancy physically in a way the man does not.

As a result of the fact that she bears a higher physical toll from pregnancy and therefore ultimate decision making power I also expect that she exercise more precaution in avoiding unwanted pregnancies and I think she bears a higher culpability for whatever trouble she may face from unwanted pregnancies. In the end its her body on the line, not the man's, and so I expect her to look after herself.

But the physical toll is not the only toll of a pregnancy. If we're discussing who has responsibility to avoid an unwanted pregnancy, it's very limited to only talk about the toll of physically carrying the child to term. That's the woman's reasons but the man can have his own separate reasons for needing to avoid a pregnancy.

Let me use some hypotheticals:

1) A man is cheating on his wife, his lover gets pregnant and refuses to get an abortion because she feels that between child support, her job and her family support system she can raise the child herself. He kills her because he doesn't want his wife to know.

She had more responsibility to avoid the pregnancy than he did?

2) A man doesn't believe in abortions, does believe in birth control, but the girl he's sleeping with is fine with abortions. He would hate himself if he ever had one of his children aborted, she wouldn't care. Who has the greater responsibility to avoid an unwanted pregnancy?

 

[JonesBones]

I think you're right which is why if I see a single mom complain about being left by the guy I still blame her. You could've aborted it. Oh, you didn't think he'd leave? Maybe you shouldn't have carried the child of a man for whom you lacked the certainty of commitment. Couldn't afford an abortion? Didn't have access? Well, you took the risk knowing those things or being ignorant of them and paid for it.

Her womb is part of her body and the fetus needs that to survive. I don't think the fetus is entitled to the use of that womb. However, I don't believe in abortions in cases where the fetus is viable outside the womb.

This is where people go wrong. The womb is an organ. Like a kidney. A woman owns her kidneys and other organs, yes. People try to slide the fetus in there as an organ but it is an organism. Big difference.

I mean, "her body" shit can lead to this: baby can be aborted 5 minutes before being delivered because it is still the mother's property. So the property rights argument, which is so ironic and reminds me racist white guys who think they can do anything or kick people out because of their color "because they own the place" is moot.

Seriously. Abortion is a property rights issue. Nothing more. Like people who dont want to create cakes they dont want to in their bakery or other segregation shit.

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

A huge number of women don't even get prenatal care because they want their drug use to go undetected.

source? This sounds like the republican thought that people on welfare use it to buy drugs, then a state (Arizona?) spend a ton of money drug testing people and caught like 2 people lol.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...-and-found-they-are-flushing-taxpayer-dollars

 

[oldshadow]

So, if a guy kills a woman because her pregnancy would ruin his life, it was still more her responsibility to avoid the situation even though the pregnancy wouldn't have ruined her life?

The fact she got pregnant but he can not blame just her nor excuse or justified his reaction.

 

[tonni]

I can't get behind supporting abortion on the basis that its needed to save a womans life... shouldnt she not have gotten pregnant in the first place?

 

[panamaican]

The fact she got pregnant but he can not blame just her nor excuse or justified his reaction.

So it was more her responsibility to avoid the situation?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Let me use some hypotheticals:

1) A man is cheating on his wife, his lover gets pregnant and refuses to get an abortion because she feels that between child support, her job and her family support system she can raise the child herself. He kills her because he doesn't want his wife to know.

She had more responsibility to avoid the pregnancy than he did?

2) A man doesn't believe in abortions, does believe in birth control, but the girl he's sleeping with is fine with abortions. He would hate himself if he ever had one of his children aborted, she wouldn't care. Who has the greater responsibility to avoid an unwanted pregnancy?

I suppose you have a point so let me rephrase it. Given her decision making power the woman is always more responsible for the outcome of the pregnancy, even if in some cases the man has more reasons to avoid the pregnancy, because he isn't the one making the decision.

This is where people go wrong. The womb is an organ. Like a kidney. A woman owns her kidneys and other organs, yes. People try to slide the fetus in there as an organ but it is an organism. Big difference.

I mean, "her body" shit can lead to this: baby can be aborted 5 minutes before being delivered because it is still the mother's property. So the property rights argument, which is so ironic and reminds me racist white guys who think they can do anything or kick people out because of their color "because they own the place" is moot.

Seriously. Abortion is a property rights issue. Nothing more. Like people who dont want to create cakes they dont want to in their bakery or other segregation shit.

Reread what I wrote, I did not claim that the fetus is an organ but rather that the womb is and the fetus is not entitled to use the womb if the mother does not want it too. If my cousin gets involved in a severe accident and needs an organ transplant for which only I am an acceptable donor I can not be compelled to do the organ transfer because its my body even though my decision not to allow it would lead to their death. I see the situation of a pregnancy in a similar light, which is also why I said I don't believe in allowing abortions of viable fetuses since they can survive outside the womb.

 

[cincymma79]

source? This sounds like the republican thought that people on welfare use it to buy drugs, then a state (Arizona?) spend a ton of money drug testing people and caught like 2 people lol.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...-and-found-they-are-flushing-taxpayer-dollars

I worked in a nicu for a year and have seen this multiple times. Fair enough they were coming to me because their parents were fucked up so my experience is skewed.

 

[Fawlty]

Remove bogus religion and this becomes a very easy issue

Fact. Anti-woman healthcare is almost exclusively a religious endeavor.

The other big fact is that we have expensive, shitty healthcare and we're also very stingy with it.