The Cost of Pro-Life: US now has (by far) highest maternal death rate in developed world

[Anung Un Rama]

They both carry the burden. And it's his body just as much as it's hers during sex. I was being slightly tongue in cheek earlier but this is an area where the "Nope, all on her" rhetoric really doesn't make sense to me. When the 2 people are about to have sex, there is no pregnancy. There's no compelling argument that either party is more/less responsible for preventing pregnancy at this point.

And when someone suggests that the woman bears the greater responsibility, I always cross check that against their position on child support and child custody. Because on this board, we get a decent number of people complaining about how the legal system is unfair to men in these child related matters but then there tends to be some overlap with the same people arguing that the woman should prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

It's just a weird position to say that dudes bear minimal responsibility for preventing pregnancy (I'm not attributing that position to you), relative to the woman, and that dudes bear minimal responsibility for child support following pregnancy. And then to also say that "traditional family values" need to return and that feminism is destroying world or whatever hyperbolic statement is used. The whole combination suggests a world where we, men, can act in a consequence free fashion and simply shift the blame primarily onto women and absolve ourselves of acting differently/better.

We used to shame women who got pregnant out of wedlock but we also expected the men to immediately marry the woman and start providing for her financially. We recognized that both people were responsible to prevent the situation.

How much responsibility do you think a man has in deciding to have an abortion?

 

[21 Savage]

Medical tourism. Women are forced to go into the UK or other EU countries to get the procedure done. Likely a bit under 4k verifiable instances of abortion for 2016 (to put into context 60k births in the country); this includes about 500 orders for abortion pills (assuming older trends have continued) - ref. here. Mind you the number is laughably low since it only counts instances where women gave irish addresses to UK hospitals, so it doesn't count people who just lied or had it done outside the UK - say in Germany or the Netherlands.

It really is an absolutely shameful situation, particularly since it directly leads to the death of mother for whom it was not an elective procedure (e.g. in cases of foetal abnormality, most recently http://www.thejournal.ie/fergal-malone-abortion-flight-death-3642355-Oct2017). So we frankly don't know what the "real" maternal death rate in IE (with its abhorrent abortion laws) is.

son of peterfromsweden wont answer this

 

[PainIsLIfe]

A week after the March for Life, pro-life ideologues continue to win the battle against pragmatism.



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-call-the-pro-lifers-what-they-are-pro-death

What would you attribute the 22.6 rate amoung AA women in DC torawd?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595019/

I mean after all, they have the highest abortion rate in the country as well.

 

[panamaican]

How much responsibility do you think a man has in deciding to have an abortion?

But we weren't talking about abortions. We were talking about the responsibility for getting pregnant in the 1st place.

As for how much responsibility a man has in deciding to have an abortion, isn't that just the same argument that is being used against women? If you know that you have no say in the abortion then you should make sure that you don't get her pregnant. Your responsibility.

 

[Higus]

It's healthcare in general. Abortion is just one part of that conversation. Particularly because it tends to tie into larger conversations about how we treat poor pregnant women.

Nailed it. Pro-life liberal people (they exist) will focus on increasing education and accessibility to family planning, making healthcare accessible and affordable for pregnant women, and for ensuring that they have resources to raise their children on a single or no-income if necessary. I don't see the logic behind the segment that's more focused on punishing poor women at the expense of their children's futures as well.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

1. There is evidence. It's in the OP.

2. What's responsible in your opinion?

3. What is responsible then?

These are pretty broad questions that probably require many page to answer and I'm not sure I'm perfectly qualified to do so, but I'll give it the old sherdog try.

1. I address the evidence in the next quote.

2. Many factors. The article goes so far as to site racism. The NPR piece I posted in one of the first 5 posts of this thread, which has been quoted at least twice so far, gives a more nuanced and technical examination of likely causes.

3. See my NPR article

1. From the article:

Texas, for example, saw its maternal mortality rate more than double between 2010 and 2014, as the state closed more than half of its abortion clinics and severely cut funding for Planned Parenthood. Thanks to Texas and a few other states with strong “pro-life” lobbies, mostly in the south, the US now bears the ghastly distinction of having the highest maternal mortality rate of all the world’s wealthy democracies.

And right below that:
What does the presence or absence of abortion services have to do with the chances of a woman’s surviving pregnancy and childbirth? No one knows exactly what’s going on, but most people seem to agree that the relationship is indirect: states that make abortions hard to get also tend to be stingy about health services like prenatal and postnatal care, hence less likely to catch the escalating blood pressure or anomalous bleeding that can presage a woman’s death.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Btw, does it trouble anyone that 12% of all pregnancy related deaths from 09-10 were actually related to the flu?

FFS, if you die within a yr of giving birth it automatically counts as pregnancy related regardless of the actual cause.

 

[spamking]

I can't get behind supporting abortion on the basis that its needed to save a womans life... shouldnt she not have gotten pregnant in the first place?

You can't support a medical procedure that might save a woman's life? That's about the only time I would support it. I definitely disagree with women using abortion as a form of birth control.

Accidents happen . . . birth control isn't 100% effective in some cases. But I would prefer that pro-life folks focus on birth control and supporting it rather than shaming folks for their indiscretions or mistakes.

 

[all caps]

You can't support a medical procedure that might save a woman's life? That's about the only time I would support it. I definitely disagree with women using abortion as a form of birth control.

Accidents happen . . . birth control isn't 100% effective in some cases. But I would prefer that pro-life folks focus on birth control and supporting it rather than shaming folks for their indiscretions or mistakes.

I agree (as I said later on)

Yea, my post was very vague. Sorry about that.

 

[panamaican]

What would you attribute the 22.6 rate amoung AA women in DC torawd?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595019/

I mean after all, they have the highest abortion rate in the country as well.

That report is 17 years old. Amnesty international has a lengthy report on the U.S. and they cover a wide range of relevant points. The usual stuff reasserts itself which is basically that poor women get lesser care and, for historical reasons, there are more poor minority women than poor white women.

Unintended pregnancies have worse outcomes and black women are 50% more likely to have unintended pregnancies than white women. But that doesn't explain why the maternal death rate is 400% higher for black women. 4x the chance of death is a helluva a difference when the unintended pregnancy rate isn't even 2x.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/files/pdfs/deadlydelivery.pdf

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Who's making the argument against abortion on the grounds of the mother's safety? Most people are arguing for the life of the unborn.
In that case this is a weak argument.

From the perspective of the argument that people actually make, 26-odd maternal death per 100,000 live births isn't as dramatic as ending 20,000-odd babies per 100,000 you allow to be born.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

But we weren't talking about abortions. We were talking about the responsibility for getting pregnant in the 1st place.

We weren't talking about child support or custody either. For the record I feel a man should at the very least pay child support. Custody is a personal matter, but I do feel a real man should be in his child's life.

As for how much responsibility a man has in deciding to have an abortion, isn't that just the same argument that is being used against women? If you know that you have no say in the abortion then you should make sure that you don't get her pregnant. Your responsibility.

If a man is more responsible for creating a pregnancy then he should have more than zero responsibility in having an abortion.
If its a woman's body and her right to choose than she should bear the greater responsibility for creating the pregnancy, and in fact I believe she does.

 

[sub_thug]

That report is 17 years old. Amnesty international has a lengthy report on the U.S. and they cover a wide range of relevant points. The usual stuff reasserts itself which is basically that poor women get lesser care and, for historical reasons, there are more poor minority women than poor white women.

Unintended pregnancies have worse outcomes and black women are 50% more likely to have unintended pregnancies than white women. But that doesn't explain why the maternal death rate is 400% higher for black women. 4x the chance of death is a helluva a difference when the unintended pregnancy rate isn't even 2x.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/files/pdfs/deadlydelivery.pdf

That's really interesting. I wonder what's behind all that? It's probably very complex, but I would like to see what the difference becomes when you control for income and geographical locations. The reason that I include the latter is because air quality in cities just plain sucks as compared to the country, water quality is going to be different, sleep may be affected by things like traffic outside, etc. All things that directly and indirectly relate to health. There are some other things as well, such as Sickle Cell Anemia not being present in whites and such. I wonder if those same environmental and health history factors would reduce the disparity, or if it's not related to the usual suspects?

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Btw, does it trouble anyone that 12% of all pregnancy related deaths from 09-10 were actually related to the flu?

FFS, if you die within a yr of giving birth it automatically counts as pregnancy related regardless of the actual cause.

I don't have a problem with it so long as this statistic is captured equally around the world.

 

[panamaican]

We weren't talking about child support or custody either. For the record I feel a man should at the very least pay child support. Custody is a personal matter, but I do feel a real man should be in his child's life.



If a man is more responsible for creating a pregnancy then he should have more than zero responsibility in having an abortion.
If its a woman's body and her right to choose than she should bear the greater responsibility for creating the pregnancy, and in fact I believe she does.

Disagree. The act of creating a pregnancy is independent of what the parties do about the pregnancy after the fact.

The abortion is not the consequence of his/her choice. The pregnancy is the consequence. Both parties have post-pregnancy consequences. Therefore both parties have equal pre-pregnancy responsibilities. Just because one party's consequences don't mirror the other party's consequences doesn't change their individual responsibility to avoid their individual consequences.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Disagree. The act of creating a pregnancy is independent of what the parties do about the pregnancy after the fact.

The abortion is not the consequence of his/her choice. The pregnancy is the consequence. Both parties have post-pregnancy consequences. Therefore both parties have equal pre-pregnancy responsibilities. Just because one party's consequences don't mirror the other party's consequences doesn't change their individual responsibility to avoid their individual consequences.

I agree with just about everything you’re sayin, ither than the pregnancy part. I think the woman has more of a responsibility to prevent the pregnancy. And to be clear, I’m not equating responsibility to blame.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Putting all the responsibility on the woman. Men who think like that are why there are so many fatherless children running around.

There is nothing more embarrassingly pathetic than misogyny. Low T. Sad!

Shouldn't the dude have not tried to kill her by getting her pregnant in the first place?

More seriously, when people say shouldn't she have not gotten pregnant, I always wonder why people don't say "Shouldn't he had not gotten her pregnant?" I've always wondered about that because technically, the dude could have pulled out, put on a rubber, etc. Just seems weird to always phrase it as the woman's failing when the dude is far better positioned to prevent the pregnancy.

My pull out game was Olympic level for that very reason.

I see what you're saying about the man's culpability but the fact of the matter is its the woman's body, not the man's, and she ultimately, should she have access to an abortion, has the final say on whether she carries the baby all the way. So as far as I'm concerned she should bear most of the culpability, you know what they say about great and responsibility.

 

[Trotsky]

THIS!

It's the definition of having an answer to a problem in your biased mind before investigation of the problem

Hannitty or Jones could throw up the same stats and numbers and make up some bullshit about it being the Pro Choice sides fault.

Hell, a racist could make an even grosser claim.

This has to do with factors not even touched on in the OP

Until provided otherwise, most will presume you didn't read the article or its companion articles.

If you are to say that the (considerable, long-spanning) correlations are spurious, you should explain why. And, to be sure, there are variables unaccounted for, but to argue that they offset the relationship entirely is...well..

 

[HomerThompson]

I see what you're saying about the man's culpability but the fact of the matter is its the woman's body, not the man's, and she ultimately, should she have access to an abortion, has the final say on whether she carries the baby all the way. So as far as I'm concerned she should bear most of the culpability, you know what they say about great and responsibility.

BOOO!!!!

 

[panamaican]

That's really interesting. I wonder what's behind all that? It's probably very complex, but I would like to see what the difference becomes when you control for income and geographical locations. The reason that I include the latter is because air quality in cities just plain sucks as compared to the country, water quality is going to be different, sleep may be affected by things like traffic outside, etc. All things that directly and indirectly relate to health. There are some other things as well, such as Sickle Cell Anemia not being present in whites and such. I wonder if those same environmental and health history factors would reduce the disparity, or if it's not related to the usual suspects?

It's almost entirely wealth related. Poor people in this country have worse health outcomes across the board. Primarily because health insurance is expensive and poor people forego heath care to minimize the cost burden. Moreover, when they do pursue healthcare they don't receive the same level of care because the our medical professions are slightly biased in favor of those with better paying capabilities (not surprising since people prefer customers who they know will pay over customers where it's up in the air). And poor people are often in worse health to begin because they avoid the regular check ups and so forth for cost related reasons.

This is why you don't see the same level of disparity in countries with universal health care. It's not that they don't have poor people or poor minorities. It's that poor people get similar care to better off people. Although that is starting to change, there is an increase in the well-to-do seeing better heath care outcomes even in those countries as they gradually shift more of the healthcare burden to the private sector.