Take downs in bjj or lack of..

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by youngjune, Jun 1, 2018.

  1. youngjune

    youngjune White Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    17
    It's hard enough to just learn bjj but I find the lack of take down or stand up grappling is kind of frustrating.

    For example. I spar against a pure wrestler. He was able to control me with clinches and take me down easily. The only thing I can do is pull guard but he would explode up . I realize my wrestling or any stand up grappling sucks.

    But most bjj gym when they spar it's on the ground. I find this frustrating. Why not focus more on take downs?
     
    RyanR likes this.
  2. ArtemV

    ArtemV Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    16,122
    Likes Received:
    10,889
    Location:
    Moscow/SPb
    It is a problem in the majority of BJJ gyms who don't have an ex-judoka/wrestler as the coach.

    Just ask the wrestler to give you tips when drilling/sparring from standing up. But if he has wrestled for a time in his life, you just have to accept that you will get bullied in a clinch and taken down 8/10 times you spar. You just have to do things right, work at it slowly. Especially against a guy who beats you up in wrestling. You will start doing things better and right. Just try and wrestle with guys who are not-so-good so you can discover takedowns that you like and work on them.
     
  3. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,737
    Likes Received:
    2,875
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    I think in situations like yours the best thing you can do is use sweeping strategies that also double as takedown strategies. Like underhook to dogfight from half guard, or sit up guard to leg shots. That way either way you can get practice in, and doing one will help you do the other.
     
    beat...people...up? likes this.
  4. Bluesbreaker

    Bluesbreaker Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,912
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    A couple of thoughts, TS:
    The rules of BJJ have diminished the need for takedowns. Sometimes they are neglected entirely.

    Also, I know some gyms have an issue with space/numbers. That could be especially dangerous with spazzy takedown sparring.
     
    OCGSC and biscuitsbrah like this.
  5. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,099
    Likes Received:
    1,175
    Because they don't know how throw..

    So vote with your hard earned cash and go find one club that offer at leatl some judo training.
     
  6. efficientjudo

    efficientjudo White Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    254
    There is time / focus element to it. You can't just be shown a couple of takedowns and expect to pull them off in a live situation, it takes time and drilling, meaning less time for drilling groundwork. For the sake of 2 points, I don't think its worth it - BJJ schools that take a competitive jiu-jitsu approach don't really have any reason to invest in takedowns. Pull guard and sweep.

    If you want to be an all round grappler - you should invest some serious time in Judo and or Wrestling.
     
    Bigsquid and BJJ_Rage like this.
  7. winterbike

    winterbike Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    529
    The lack of takedowns in BJJ is a part of it, but there's also another issue here: for how long has that guy wrestled? If he's got 5-10 years of grappling experience on you, don't expect to be able to hold him down.
     
    Bigsquid and Dogstarman like this.
  8. Dogstarman

    Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    11,533
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    Location:
    On the mats
    Jiu jitsu is a ground based art. I know that everyone says, how are you going to get the guy to the ground but it’s still based on the ground.

    If you want to learn throws go to Judo. I’m not interested in learning takedowns. I’m over 40 and I’m interested in my longevity.

    Now to your second problem. The wrestler is probably just a better grappler than you, plain and simple.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  9. berimBOWLoh

    berimBOWLoh Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    Messages:
    11,372
    Likes Received:
    5,945
    if one guy concentrates fully on just takedowns and you gotta learn a zillion ground techniques its pretty obv who is gonna be better at takedowns.

    Even if BJJ schools got better at them it will never catch up to Judo or wrestling. Just like Judo will never catch up to BJJ newaza.
     
    Bigsquid, Uchi Mata and efficientjudo like this.
  10. CrazyN8

    CrazyN8 Custom Title

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,301
    Likes Received:
    1,737
    New gym i am at has every roll start standing, every single role. I have mixed feelings about it but so far no injuries and my takedowns have gotten better.
     
  11. Cash Bill 52

    Cash Bill 52 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    3,992
    Likes Received:
    966
    Location:
    Pleasant Hill, CA
    Takedowns in bjj? What are you, a psycho?
     
    BJJ_Rage, ArtemV and j123 like this.
  12. AnotherOldGuy

    AnotherOldGuy Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    2,493
    Likes Received:
    1,638
    BJJ has the best ground work in grappling, and the worst takedowns/throws. Why not just find a judo or wrestling club, depending on whether you want gi or no-gi, for the takedowns/throws?

    Its no different than taking biology classes at college from a biologist, and physics classes from a physicist, instead of trying to find a professor who mixes the two into a single class. Specialists tend to be better at their specialty than generalists.

    And as a side benefit, you'll get to work with people who love ground in BJJ classes, and people who love to work on throws/takedowns in judo/wrestling - much more fun and useful than going to a general class where half the people don't want to do either standing or ground.
     
    Bigsquid likes this.
  13. asian-glow

    asian-glow Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    196
    Likes Received:
    167
    There is a strange and pervasive attitude regarding takedowns - that they are dangerous. Things are inherently more chaotic on the feet but it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where people get hurt because they don't do them and don't do them because they get hurt. Couple this with people who have almost no athletic background, no desire to work hard or humble themselves, a point system which seems incentivizes guard pulling and you have the current state of the stand up game in many BJJ gyms.

    I can only speak for myself but the biggest thing for me is that I was not willing to humble myself. I got my ass whooped for a solid year at bjj and I was trying to avoid having to do that again in a standup context.

    I do this for self defense and I could not help but find it disturbing that I had trouble taking down people who had no standup experience. Furthermore, even when I got the takedown I noticed that a lot of the time I would get reversed to the bottom. BJJ was useless if I had no way of bridging the space between feet and floor.

    There are all kinds of problems I encountered trying to learn takedowns in a BJJ school - my coach even used to wrestle a little bit in high school. I decided to take a private with a wrestler in my area and then jumping in on a practice session with his high school kids. I got my ass whooped by kids 10+ years younger than me but it was a fun time.

    I tell this novel to show you that you may have to branch out if it's that important to you. Depending on your goals and stage in life, you may find it worthwhile to seek outside privates/training/etc. If you're lucky, hopefully you have a guy in your club who can show you some stuff.
     
  14. CFGroup

    CFGroup Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    511
    BJJ don't know Ukemi!

    LOL!

    U need good conditioning and U get hurt a lot more to get thrown around the room!
     
    Thrawn33 likes this.
  15. Dana_is_your_GOD

    Dana_is_your_GOD Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Messages:
    10,563
    Likes Received:
    20,154
    Location:
    Sara's Room
    Pull gWard bro
     
    Chok Sok Te likes this.
  16. Fla graplr

    Fla graplr White Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    102
    I have found takedowns an art I need to take personal responsibility to improve at in a jiu jitsu gym environment. I wrestled in high school but always strive to improve upon what I already know and do continue wrestling to develope gameplans for tournaments. Taking advantage of the fact that many other competitors dont have much standup experience. Find a guy who has some takedown experience and a good work ethic and show up to open mats together maybe once a week and experiment with thing and trade info. Maybe get 2 or 3 takedowns and setups and drill those. Once a week will be slow progress, but at the end of the year you will have improved significantly over the competition who hasnt been
     
    Typrune Goatley likes this.
  17. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,017
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    Do some Bjj people even ever consider like a few of the actually educated people have pointed out.. that the fact you think you’ll get injured becomes self fulfilling prophecy. Or that if you stopped being snobby about what types of takedowns you think you “should” learn that of are “technical” English (eye roll).. you’d be surprised at how safe you can keep it.

    The problem outside the meta stuff breaks down into 3 parts
    Snobbery
    The amount of times I’ve seen Bjj people say the wrestler win in Bjj or mma, or why they can’t be taken down or “rag doll” Bjj people because of “grit” “toughness” “athleticism” VASTLY outnumbers the people that acknowledge the fact, that it’s also because that wrestler is not only a more experienced grappler than you but more technical in that aspect than you

    But because wrestling is seen by a giant chunk of the Bjj community as less technical, or too “athleticism based” or not a “true martial art” but something jocks do (double eye roll). When learning wrestling or explaining why they don’t.. there’s an inherent bias and hesitation to actually learn it as a technical art.

    Ignorance of multiple types
    There’s the type of ignorance mentioned above. Then there’s the simple fact that a lot of black belts do not know takedowns on a technical enough level to teach them.. or are/would be vastly inferior to many middle school coaches who are blue or purple belts in wrestling themselves.. but still better at teaching wrestling safely than the majority of Bjj black belts.. and I’m not using hyperbole.

    In fact.. there are a gigantic chunk of high school wrestling coaches, who did not wrestle in college.. that I’d pick to safely teach wrestling to Bjj people.. over Damien Maia

    Pause here, now before anyone has a hissy fit because they think I insulted Maia.. no I didn’t. Re-read it. I didn’t Danaher you. Don’t be obtuse, I’m not dissing Maia, disregard if you didn’t need my disclaimer. ;)

    Do not only do the lower belts or hobbyists in general have a perception. But you have black belts teaching shit like “shoulder pressure” on a Russian tie

    Lack of humility
    Now I’m aware that whenever this is mentioned or actually called out.. people say this never happens.. but this is based on personal experience, trusted friends, and paying attention on the inter webs.

    But not every Bjj player is a middle aged to old “hobbyist” either now are they. And let’s be honest, many “hobbyists” only become a “hobbyist” (or say so) when they lose or “get hurt”. I’ve seen vastly more frustration and anger from Bjj and mma players who can takedown or get “rag dolled” by somone smaller than when the occasional wrestler does just muscle through shit or bullies hobbyists.

    I am not talking about the latter case. In that instance the enforcer/higher belts do their thing and the wrestler adjusts or quits. I’m talking about when people get angry because they lose to someone they think they shouldn’t, and they aren’t humble enough to be a white belt agai


    I won’t go on anymore and I’ve said a bunch. But the simple fact is, the above 3 factors play into Bjj people not learning takedowns as much as any other reasons given
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  18. Darwinambrosius

    Darwinambrosius Thought you had a friend, boy?

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    8,316
    Wrestling is hard, and most people in the average BJJ gym do not have the wrestling experience to teach it well.
     
    Bigsquid likes this.
  19. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,017
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    I’ll argue most higher belts period don’t have the experience either, and the culture has not encouraged them to either
     
    Bigsquid likes this.
  20. Fla graplr

    Fla graplr White Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    102
    There is something about getting dropped on your ass over and over again that tends to make people want to make excuses as to why the aren't good at it
     
    judoka loca and Bigsquid like this.

Share This Page