Strength Training and Striking

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Pugilistic, May 27, 2018.

  1. William Huggins

    William Huggins Blue Belt

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    Throwing things, like balls and rocks, something that fits in the palm of your hand....

    For kicking, kick a football on the penalty spot

    Both require maximum acceleration. The aim is to achieve greater distance of the object. I find it helps with speed and power.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  2. Bdolf

    Bdolf White Belt

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    Tyson was repping 225 squats as an accessory excercise. As I said earlier, i think it all come down to the developement of thise fast twitch fibers and training your CNS to fire them off more efficiently. Depending on rep speed and volume it would aid in explosiveness or endurance.

    /broscience
     
  3. Noodles03

    Noodles03 Blue Belt

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    Sorry to hijack the thread, but I never had any carryover to my striking from hitting a tire with a sledge hammer nor from throwing a med ball.
     
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  4. spacetime

    spacetime Brown Belt

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    We did that in my first gym.
     
  5. William Huggins

    William Huggins Blue Belt

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    But you got better at working on the rail road.....
     
  6. thugpoet

    thugpoet Purple Belt

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    Lifting weights is overrated for all skill sports. In most cases it's not who is the strongest or most explosive who wins.

    It's who uses their skill set the best
     
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  7. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

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    I would think he's basically saying like, everyone having certain affinities for certain factors of performance, and a certain degree to which they can 'retool' or 'specialize' their factors of potential to a certain area of performance.

    So you know, the old 'having a given level of potential and training bringing improvement are both true', in so many words.


    On the subject on the OP, i think it can be helpful to break it down first into basic principles. A simplified explanation of the dynamics underlying the effects of that set of behaviors sometimes called exercise is the stress-adaptation cycle; placing the body under a certain stress it can recover from (key qualifier), and it adapting in order to ameliorate that sort of stress in the future.

    So then. If one's goal is to throw a punch harder, then it brings up the obvious consequent: how do you add increased resistance to the punching movement? Or more broadly, movements that participate in the punching movement?

    People have given various answers of varying felicity over the years, such as wrist weights, or stretch bands, or so on. In my view though, the safest and most effective ways of adding significant amounts of resistance to a punching movement, would be, primarily, through sled drags or prowler pushing, and secondarily, through club/macebell swings.

    I would say drags more than prowlers though, since most prowlers are fairly low to the ground and to push it you would need to hunch over like you're in a rugby scrum, while a sled can be used more sport specifically, with a rope or stirrup one handed using the same stance and form you would use in a fight, which is the most important thing you would want to add resistance too.

    Exact implementation can take various forms to suit your needs, from high loads at any speed for building up maximal, to lower loads for 'sprint' bursts at high intensity at intervals, to long(er) duration works for muscular endurance. A fight itself can often demand a fighter shift rapidly between different levels of effort as dictated by his gameplan or the vagaries of the dance with his counterpart in general (which is one reason why i think the 400 meter dash is a great exercise [through perhaps not implemented through constantly running counterclockwise]; hits all three energy systems, in particular making you burn through the first two and hit 'the wall' before you can fully complete it [ https://experiencelife.com/article/all-about-your-metabolic-energy-systems/ ]).
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
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  8. Pugilistic

    Pugilistic Red Belt

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    I didn't know Tyson could squat like that. Do you have a video? In all the countless footage of him training, I never seen him lift weights, so the image of it almost feels alien.

    I never used a prowler before but apparently the more proper way to push one is to not hunch over based some videos I've seen. There's also an explanation from Rippetoe for that as well. I saw a clip of GGG pushing one standing pretty upright.

    On the topic of conditioning, I read from somewhere that doing "sprints" of 70-80% of your effort is a great way to condition yourself. I forgot the science behind it but I think it was something about doing just enough to border on using your anaerobic system without actually using it. I was mixing these in with my regular roadwork and all out sprints, and my cardio seemed to have gotten pretty good fairly quickly. I remember in one camp, I went from feeling like collapsing after four rounds of sparring to feeling only heavily winded after 6 rounds near the end of the camp.

    Anyway, I've been practicing power cleans and power snatches from the hang just using the bar, and I've found them to be pretty difficult to do. I am learning by watching youtube
     
  9. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I have a lot of thoughts and opinions on this based on my own reading but I'll shorten it as best I can. It starts with 3 basic rules:

    1) There's a difference between training and exercising. Exercise is something you do for the moment, training is something you do for a specific long term goal. So most of us might play basketball for exercise but we train in a martial art. We don't have long term goals for basketball or darts or whatever, we do have long term goals for boxing, karate, MT, etc.

    2) Anything you train is subject to the law of diminishing returns. So the better you get at something, the more work and specialization is required to carve out incremental gains. It takes more work to move your bench from 305 to 395 than it did to move your bench from 90 to 180.

    3) Jack of all trades, master of none. As much as we'd like to believe otherwise, it's very difficult to master multiple things.

    So, strength training and martial arts can easily co-exist at certain levels of training. But as you progress, you have do decide which activity is your primary training focus - strength training or martial arts. And that means that one of them must suffer from a training perspective. The more you train one, the more you will need to specialize to pull out additional gains. The more time you will have to commit in order to get those gains. And that means that the other activity must grow slower or not at all.

    And so long as you're fine knowing that you're leaving strength gains on the table to chase martial arts gains then one doesn't haven't to negatively impact the other. Or vice versa.

    The type of strength training doesn't matter, the martial art doesn't matter. At the lower to mid levels of training, you can do any combination of them simultaneously. At the higher level of training, they can still co-exist but they won't both be high level, one will stay mid-level or lower. And that's fine.
     
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  10. Sano

    Sano Black Belt

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    The problem with that is that overcoming the resistence of a prowler or a sled drag is very different than overcoming the inertia of a punch. The mechanics are hardly simular, especially if you are talking about a standard prowler push (whether it's bend over or more upright). The strength and stability required to keep your arms stiff and push might strengthen certain parts in the chain, which could lead to less force leakage during a punch and more power, but it would'nt increase your explosiveness and ability to create force. The problem is that being fast and explosive has a lot to do with certain physiological parameters, which are not improved by doing straight arm pushes, max strength work or isometric strength exercises. The biomechanics are different, the velocity is different and the adaption is different.

    A traditional sled drag or prowler push would be much better for wrestling and MMA, as it somewhat resembles pushing through for the double, and is closer on the strength-velocity curve. If I were to do prowler pushes for striking, I would do this variation:


    Now I'm not saying it's not a good exercise, because it is! For this specific purpose though there are others I'd rather have someone do. Firstly you need to build whole body isometric strength, and when that is done and you move into the sports specific exercises. Certain med ball variations and isolated punch drills with focus on maximum power and using various cues to make that effective would be my preferred method. The importance of intent and how it effects your nervous firing is very underestimated. Also, if you want to work on power, I like the split stance single arm landmine punch more:



    Mimics the punch biomechanics, can keep load low enough not to mess up motor skills and to be fast enough to work on speed and explosiveness. You can also do variations with it, including catching and releasing, to work on the stretch reflex.

    There are more ways to train the power in the punch, albeit yes overall strength lays a good foundation.

    Just fyi, Rippetoe doesn't know what he's talking about 90% of the time. He has made so many erroneous and outrageous claims. He knows about powerlifting, but he oversteps his boundaries all the time.
     
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  11. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

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    I agree already with more or less of the points on prowler pushing, i believe i mostly said as much (or indicated at the very least) in my own post.

    One of the most beneficial things something like an isometric wall push or one handed sled drag can improve is your power jab. Unlike a cross, it's not really a 'self contained' motion, so to speak, where the majority of the work can be done while stationary (the internal rotation of throwing your trail side forward); a stationary jab is basically 'just' an arm punch. Getting in punch form and pushing forward however, puts the whole kinetic chain into tension, specifically targeting the exact muscles you use when performing the movement 'live', in particular the gluteus medius and minoris.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  12. Azam

    Azam Purple Belt

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    This thread is pretty damn interesting. It's nice to see the differences in opinions between martial arts training and S&C. One thing though that I feel that's important in this discussion but hasn't been mentioned (from what I've read) - is longevity. I don't think it's a coincidence that it hasn't been mentioned - I think a lot of people that do strength training or fighting treat longevity as an after-thought or just simply neglect it. I'm by no means an expert. But I think we can all agree that our bodies naturally undergo wear/tear from something as simple as ageing and that is rate of wear/tear only increases with activities that put a lot of stress on our joints.

    I'll try to make short points on what I think about this topic:

    1. Is strength training important for martial arts? Yes. But not as a means of improving speed/strength/athletic performance but more as a tool for strengthening/conditioning the body for the rigours of martial arts training. It's an important tool imo for longevity and injury prevention (a bit like Hojo Undo in Okinawan karate). The best way of improving speed/strength performance for fighting is engaging in fight specific training I feel.

    2. Like @panamaican mentioned - there is a point of diminishing returns. After a certain point you have to do more work to see incremental gains. I'd also add that the more work you do, the more wear/tear you accumulate and the more detrimental it is to your longevity especially the health of your body. You have to ask yourself is it really that necessary to your martial arts training to be able to deadlift more weight if it also comes with additional wear/tear on your joints. I'd argue that the incremental strength increase is not worth the reduction in the longevity/health of your joints. I mean all of us in here have witnessed the joint/health problems that come with significant strength gains or even significant training in martial arts.


    I think strength training is a must for martial arts but not for strength gains (like in power-lifting) but as a means to support/strengthen joints/muscles used in martial arts activity. I'd also advocate that it's probably best to have a combination of strength training, yoga, calisthenics and stretching to achieve this.
     
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  13. Sano

    Sano Black Belt

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    Very good point.

    The number one goal of any S&C program for an athlete, fighter or martial artist should be injury prevention and improving joint health and tissue strength. Too many focus on performance for performance sake, but a healthy athlete is a well performing one.
     
  14. Azam

    Azam Purple Belt

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    You'd think that should be the number one goal for any S&C program for athletes, fighters or martial artists but it rarely is.

    For the overwhelming majority the focus is on performance which usually comes at the expense of long term health of joints. You'd think that more people would acknowledge the more stress you put on your joints/tissue the more degeneration from wear/tear they undergo.

    I think that's probably why you see a high rate of injury from wear/tear with people who engage in those activities and especially the degeneration of joints/tissue in ex fighters/athletes or competitors. You even see really bad joint/tissue degeneration with powerlifters and bodybuilders as they age too.


    Personally my regimen at the moment is almost exclusively different exercises with my macebells, cycling, weighted squats, jump rope, calisthenics & a lot of stretching. I'm pretty much focusing on time under tension, low weight with high reps. I feel like it's a lot less wear/tear on the joints with the lower weight.

    I'd highly recommend macebell swings (9 to 2's & 360's) for anything standing grappling especially grip strength.
     
  15. thugpoet

    thugpoet Purple Belt

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    I don't think performance and injury prevention are separate.

    flexibility
    strength in the proper cross muscular areas
    inflammation control
    coordination

    are the goals of most programs in no order. most injuries happen because of fatigue and bad planning not because of the S&C program.
     
  16. Sano

    Sano Black Belt

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    It doesn't have to be, but a lot of S&C coaches don't think that.

    Inflammation control is the goal of most programs? Could you elaborate on that? Actually, could you elaborate on "proper cross muscular areas" and what you mean by coordination too?
     
  17. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    definitely one of the best things for improving power. it's all about the mass times acceleration.
     
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  18. SMSLY

    SMSLY White Belt

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    I've only been boxing for 3 years or so, but I started at 30 so I think I've been very mindful in my approach. First and foremost, I haven't taken what coaches say as gospel because there's a lot of rubbish thrown around, dumbbell shadow boxing anyone?

    My first 1-2 years bodyweight stuff was more than enough conditioning and I had some modest strength and size gains. Obviously, technique is what drove my power gains and always will imo.

    Soon I felt this was too easy and my muscles werent getting stronger anymore, just better at press ups. So IIstarted powerlifting once a week with the objective of getting gradually stronger. What I found was that I got injured much less. Particularly, I wasn't tweeking my back and shoulders or jarring my wrists and elbows anymore. Better grip strength helped me make a better fist in my gloves too.

    Having doubled my squat, deadlift and press, I've made little to no size gains and doubt I'm hitting much harder, but I feel like there's more snap in my punches. I guess this is from being able to retract punches better.

    I reckon that from a low baseline, powerlifting is worthwhile. Not only for iniury prevention, but to retract better and add snap to punches. I now think I was pushing my punches before due to a weak back.

    I'm just gonna maintain my current strength level now because I feel that I've hit the point of diminishing returns or even counterproductive returns.

    Anybody else share this experience?
     
  19. thugpoet

    thugpoet Purple Belt

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    Even though you are a fighter you have to look outside your field.

    Being from a sports trainer background I've been exposed to other modalities in terms of how to train. So I was lucky .

    Inflammation control - an active stretching and flexiable system, Ice bathes, massage are what I've seen the most of.

    proper cross muscular areas references the prime muscles in your sport. For track for an example are the trucks, legs, and hips. It's not that a sprinter doesn't bench press or whatever but the goals are to build muscle in the areas that need to be stronger.

    Coordination is your ability to control your body in space. Slot of coaches are using balls for and doing rope swings or some other random stuff. Personally coordination is best worked in the work up to help with injury prevention.

    Hopefully I've answered your questions
     
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  20. thugpoet

    thugpoet Purple Belt

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