Stipe the overhyped champ vs DC

[Taric]

Stipe hasn't done what Fedor, Nog, and Werdum have in terms of actual accomplishments and actual fight record.
I mean those are facts.

Stipe is more accomplished than Randy was so he got that one wrong.

 

[Final Say]

Hence, if those dudes were not that dominant in their prime in Pride, imagine the current versions...

well, werdums best performances came in pride. fedor avoided overeem for a good reason, JDS would have laid waste to most of those guys. etc etc.

Stipe hasn't done what Fedor, Nog, and Werdum have in terms of actual accomplishments and actual fight record.
I mean those are facts.

Stipe is more accomplished than Randy was so he got that one wrong.

thats.. false. stipe has more defenses than all of them. just as good of a resume if not better than all of them.

 

[gono btw]

well, werdums best performances came in pride. fedor avoided overeem for a good reason, JDS would have laid waste to most of those guys. etc etc.

thats.. false. stipe has more defenses than all of them. just as good of a resume if not better than all of them.

"fedor avoided overeem for a good reason"

When he fought all the guys he fought, why should he be afraid of a talented but very beatable Reem? Why should he be more afraid of Reem than of AA?

The 2nd JDS was clearly out-of-his-prime, everybody agrees on this, he lost something after the last 2 Cain fights.

On a sidenote, JDS´s good TDD was partly based on his master use of the fence tbh... No such thing in Pride.

 

[Mixedfights]

TS should be kicked in the nuts for saying Stipe is overrated. If anything he's underrated.

Take your Pride "glory days" down the road homie.

 

[Taric]

thats.. false. stipe has more defenses than all of them. just as good of a resume if not better than all of them.

We've been through this.

Spoiler

Fedor - #1 HW of all time (12 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Nogueira 1
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Nogueira 3
Cro Cop
Arlovski
Sylvia
Herring
Top 10 fighters defeated (6):
Coleman 1
Hunt
Randleman
Schilt
Rogers
Fujita


Nogueira - #2 HW of all time (13 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Coleman
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Cro Cop
Sylvia
Herring 1
Barnett 2
Rodriguez
Top 10 fighters defeated (7):
Couture
Werdum
Herring 2
Kharitonov
Schaub
Schilt
Overeem


Werdum - #3 HW of all time (11 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (2):
Fedor
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (2):
Hunt
Browne
Top 10 fighters defeated (7):
Tybura
Overeem
Gonzaga
Nelson
Alexander Emelianenko
Russow
Erikson


JDS - #4 HW of all time (9 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (3):
Rothwell
Carwin
Hunt
Top 10 fighters defeated (5):
Miocic
Mir
Nelson
Cro Cop
Werdum


Overeem - #5 HW of all time (8 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Werdum 2
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Werdum 3
Arlovski
JDS
Lesnar
Top 10 fighters defeated (3):
Hunt 2
Struve
Mir


Miocic - #6 HW of all time (6 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Werdum
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Hunt
Overeem
JDS
Ngnannou
Top 10 fighters defeated (1):
Arlovski

Actual accomplishments.

Stipe has defeated 6 fighters that were considered any good. It's a very thin resume.
Fedor, Nogueira, and Werdum were ranked HWs longer than Stipe has been fighting.

Hell, Stipe is only 12-2 inside the UFC. That's the exact same record Cain has inside the UFC, and Cain has the exact same number of championship belts on his mantle.
What exactly makes Stipe all that more accomplished than Cain? Serious question and I'm curious how someone can even answer it.

 

[Final Say]

We've been through this.

Spoiler

Fedor - #1 HW of all time (12 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Nogueira 1
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Nogueira 3
Cro Cop
Arlovski
Sylvia
Herring
Top 10 fighters defeated (6):
Coleman 1
Hunt
Randleman
Schilt
Rogers
Fujita


Nogueira - #2 HW of all time (13 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Coleman
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Cro Cop
Sylvia
Herring 1
Barnett 2
Rodriguez
Top 10 fighters defeated (7):
Couture
Werdum
Herring 2
Kharitonov
Schaub
Schilt
Overeem


Werdum - #3 HW of all time (11 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (2):
Fedor
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (2):
Hunt
Browne
Top 10 fighters defeated (7):
Tybura
Overeem
Gonzaga
Nelson
Alexander Emelianenko
Russow
Erikson


JDS - #4 HW of all time (9 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (3):
Rothwell
Carwin
Hunt
Top 10 fighters defeated (5):
Miocic
Mir
Nelson
Cro Cop
Werdum


Overeem - #5 HW of all time (8 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Werdum 2
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Werdum 3
Arlovski
JDS
Lesnar
Top 10 fighters defeated (3):
Hunt 2
Struve
Mir


Miocic - #6 HW of all time (6 ranked HW wins)

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Werdum
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Hunt
Overeem
JDS
Ngnannou
Top 10 fighters defeated (1):
Arlovski

Actual accomplishments.

Stipe has defeated 6 fighters that were considered any good. It's a very thin resume.
Fedor, Nogueira, and Werdum were ranked HWs longer than Stipe has been fighting.

Hell, Stipe is only 12-2 inside the UFC. That's the exact same record Cain has inside the UFC, and Cain has the exact same number of championship belts on his mantle.
What exactly makes Stipe all that more accomplished than Cain? Serious question and I'm curious how someone can even answer it.

dude.. you always cling to those rankings but they do not indicate true strength of schedule, in fact they dont really mean anything.

i mean really scrutinize this, just one small example: roy nelson

Werdum and JDS both have a win over nelson and hes listed in their top ten wins. Stipe on the other hand beat nelson, but because Roy wasnt ranked in the top ten at the time, stipe doesnt get the same amount of credit for it? it doesnt work that way, not even a little bit.



lets take it a step further... you say stipe only has 6 quality wins, right? but then you give nogueira and fedor credit for top five wins over the likes of tim sylvia and heath herring. those guys dont even scratch the basement of the quality of stipe's top 5 wins.


JDS gets credit for beating a top 5 fighter in ben rothwell? come on, you have to see why using this criteria is extremely flawed and misleading.

this list you continue posting flat out does not work when determining true quality of wins, you really should let it go. whether intentional or not, its completely misleading.

 

[Final Say]

"fedor avoided overeem for a good reason"

When he fought all the guys he fought, why should he be afraid of a talented but very beatable Reem? Why should he be more afraid of Reem than of AA?

The 2nd JDS was clearly out-of-his-prime, everybody agrees on this, he lost something after the last 2 Cain fights.

On a sidenote, JDS´s good TDD was partly based on his master use of the fence tbh... No such thing in Pride.

btw, i meant werdum's prime came in the UFC. his best performance by far was against cain, that version of werdum is easily the best wever ever seen.

and overeem is better than arlovski easily, all time.

and stipe wasnt in his prime in the first JDS fight either, just like JDS wasnt in his prime in the second fight, yet people still think stipe beat him in the first fight.

we can go back and forth for years.

 

[Taric]

dude.. you always cling to those rankings but they do not indicate true strength of schedule, in fact they dont really mean anything.

i mean really scrutinize this, just one small example: roy nelson

Werdum and JDS both have a win over nelson and hes listed in their top ten wins. Stipe on the other hand beat nelson, but because Roy wasnt ranked in the top ten at the time, stipe doesnt get the same amount of credit for it? it doesnt work that way, not even a little bit.



lets take it a step further... you say stipe only has 6 quality wins, right? but then you give nogueira and fedor credit for top five wins over the likes of tim sylvia and heath herring. those guys dont even scratch the basement of the quality of stipe's top 5 wins.


JDS gets credit for beating a top 5 fighter in ben rothwell? come on, you have to see why using this criteria is extremely flawed and misleading.

this list you continue posting flat out does not work when determining true quality of wins, you really should let it go. whether intentional or not, its completely misleading.

You're right, we have gone over this. And again it goes the other way in favor for Stipe as well.
In fact there are more instances of it favoring Stipe than it does everyone else.

• When Stipe beat Hunt it was a top 5 win for him. When Fedor beat Hunt he was only top 10.
• When Stipe beat Werdum he was a #1 win. When Nogueira beat Werdum he was only top 10.
• When Stipe beat Overeem it was top 5 win for him. When Werdum beat Overeem he was only top 10.

I can keep going.

When you beat a guy matters. That's just logical. Hell you're always telling people that PRIDE Werdum was shit and the Werdum Stipe beat was the best he ever was.
Well guess what, that's reflected in those rankings. Because if you start denouncing when you beat a guy matters, and where they're ranked at the time matters, I get to say Nogueira's win over Werdum is just as good as Stipe's win over Werdum. And that's the best win on Stipe's resume.

Your issue is you want your cake and to eat it to.

And did you seriously just shit on Nog's win over Sylvia when Sylvia was the UFC HW champion? And you believe a victory over non champions is better than that?
Fuck me.

 

[Future GOAT]

I agree Stipe is not up there with those old GOATs. That said, I feel like DC needs to knock Stipe out to win this one.

I think Stipe will TKO DC.

 

[Final Say]

You're right, we have gone over this. And again it goes the other way in favor for Stipe as well.
In fact there are more instances of it favoring Stipe than it does everyone else.

• When Stipe beat Hunt it was a top 5 win for him. When Fedor beat Hunt he was only top 10.
• When Stipe beat Werdum he was a #1 win. When Nogueira beat Werdum he was only top 10.
• When Stipe beat Overeem it was top 5 win for him. When Werdum beat Overeem he was only top 10.

I can keep going.

When you beat a guy matters. That's just logical. Hell you're always telling people that PRIDE Werdum was shit and the Werdum Stipe beat was the best he ever was.
Well guess what, that's reflected in those rankings. Because if you start denouncing when you beat a guy matters, and where they're ranked at the time matters, I get to say Nogueira's win over Werdum is just as good as Stipe's win over Werdum. And that's the best win on Stipe's resume.

Your issue is you want your cake and to eat it to.

And did you seriously just shit on Nog's win over Sylvia when Sylvia was the UFC HW champion? And you believe a victory over non champions is better than that?
Fuck me.

im saying your system is flawed. i know you see it, as well. to judge whos the best heavyweight ever based on your list is extremely misleading. theres no reason whatsoever sylvia and herring should be looked at as equal to even the worst win in stipe's top 5 section. those guys were just not very good. doesnt matter if he was HW champ, that division was trash.

im looking at quality of wins period, not just a number by a guy's name.

 

[Taric]

im saying your system is flawed. i know you see it, as well. to judge whos the best heavyweight ever based on your list is extremely misleading. theres no reason whatsoever sylvia and herring should be looked at as equal to even the worst win in stipe's top 5 section. those guys were just not very good. doesnt matter if he was HW champ, that division was trash.

im looking at quality of wins period, not just a number by a guy's name.

You can complain about my system but at least it's based on opinions that aren't my own. My own personal feelings have absolutely nothing to do with the ranking method.
You want to rank wins based entirely on your own opinion. Hell you're doing it right now with Sylvia and Herring.

Saying a win over Hunt, Overeem, or Ngannou is better than when Sylvia was champion is literally ludicrous. Tim Sylvia was a multiple time UFC champion and Hunt, Overeem, and Ngannou have objectively done nothing in comparison. Hunt's been fighting for 20 years and hasn't been a champion anywhere. Overeem has never been a champion in a major organization, he beat Todd Duffee and Paul Buentello for his imaginary belts. Hell he was getting his ass beat to the next moon when Sylvia was winning UFC belts.

And I still want to hear an objective reasoning for how Stipe has a better record than Cain does when they have an equal number of UFC HW championships and are both 12-2 inside the UFC.

 

[Final Say]

I think most would agree Overeem is both more accomplished and has better wins than Sylvia

Also stipe has far better and wins over more fighters than Cain plus more defenses

Those are both really easy and common sense points...

 

[Bend NvR Break]

The beating fighters out of prime-thing can be twisted and turned to your liking. It has been done with each and every dominant champ ever, and the greater and more dominant they are, the more it comes into play.

.

See Weidman for example

Beat older fighters AS (2x), Vitor and Machida.

Went in to fight fighters closer to their prime and was finished viciously 3 times in a row before finally beating Kelvin (in a fight he's lucky he escaped out of the 1st round in).

I think Stipe is special. You don't become UFC HW champ and have the record for title defenses without being special. I just think DC is something extra special. He's only lost to the GOAT.

 

[Floofyboy]

Even tho i kinda agree with OP, i actually think Stipe is a favorite in this fight.
DC will be lighter
Stipe has a good style to beat cormier
Stipe's wrestling should be able to stop most take downs (DC's take downs aren't that impossible to stop, both Gus and Jones could stop them).
Stipe's standup should be superior.

I believe Cormier's main path to victory is a lot of clinch game and tire out Stipe.

 

[kwd1253]

Through out the history of mma we've had goats like Fedor and greats like Big Nog, Randy Couture and Werdum.
Just dont feel Stipe is up there w/wht these champs have done.


Beating Overeem and Hunt who are 2 old Pride dinosaurs.
Beating Werdum who got caught cuz he was reckless.
Beating Francis who was dangerous but inexperienced.
Stipe is tied 1-1 with JDS.

Dana is not going to be happy til that belt is off Stipe.
Looking at this gives me the feeling DC will beat Stipe. DC wont be out wrestled and his chin stood up against Rumble and Volkan,so that wont work.

Who has dc really beat that stipe couldn’t? Rumble is quitter. Anderson was over the hill and got wrestle fuck like cheal did to him. Hendo was 43 way pass his prime. Volk beat jimmy and jumped to the top. He wasn’t ready for title shot.

Only 3 fights I give to dc was true challenger was Alexander, Roy and Barnett. He didn’t want rematch with Alexander.

Rest of people he fought was no body or a can. If want say the people he fought was old cans or pass prime. Dc fights the same shoe.

 

[Taric]

And I still want to hear an objective reasoning for how Stipe has a better record than Cain does when they have an equal number of UFC HW championships and are both 12-2 inside the UFC.

Also stipe has far better and wins over more fighters than Cain plus more defenses

Those are both really easy and common sense points...

Allow me to show you what an objective opinion looks like:

• Cain Velasquez's UFC record is 12-2
• Stipe Miocic's UFC record is 12-2

Cain Velasquez has 4 UFC championships. Those fights include victories over:

• Junior dos Santos, the #1 fighter at the time
  
• Brock Lesnar, the #1 fighter at the time
• Junior dos Santos, a top 5 fighter at the time
• Antonio Silva, a top 5 fighter at the time

Stipe Miocic has 4 UFC championships. Those fights include victories over:

• Fabricio Werdum, the #1 fighter at the time
  
• Alistair Overeem, a top 5 fighter at the time
• Junior dos Santos, a top 5 fighter at the time
• Francis Ngannou, a top 5 fighter at the time

Objectively, these records and accomplishments are identical.

Allow me to show you what a subjective opinion looks like:

Also stipe has far better and wins over more fighters than Cain plus more defenses

Those are both really easy and common sense points...

 

[Final Say]

Allow me to show you what an objective opinion looks like:

• Cain Velasquez's UFC record is 12-2
• Stipe Miocic's UFC record is 12-2

Cain Velasquez has 4 UFC championships. Those fights include victories over:

• Junior dos Santos, the #1 fighter at the time
  
• Brock Lesnar, the #1 fighter at the time
• Junior dos Santos, a top 5 fighter at the time
• Antonio Silva, a top 5 fighter at the time

Stipe Miocic has 4 UFC championships. Those fights include victories over:

• Fabricio Werdum, the #1 fighter at the time
  
• Alistair Overeem, a top 5 fighter at the time
• Junior dos Santos, a top 5 fighter at the time
• Francis Ngannou, a top 5 fighter at the time

Objectively, these records and accomplishments are identical.

Allow me to show you what a subjective opinion looks like:

First of all, I know the difference between objective and subjective. It seems you don't and heres why.

The most important thing you seem to forget is that MMA rankings themselves are not objective.

You make the statement that objectively speaking, Brock Lesnar and Bigfoot are equal wins to Overeem and JDS. That is false. The only thing objective about it is that they were all ranked in the top 5 at the time of each win.

To put it simply, these are NOT objectively indentical accomplishments. The objective argument actually FAVORS Stipe because he has more consecutive defenses whereas Cain has a loss in between these wins and thus, is an objectively a less accomplished champion that Stipe. These are the objective takes.

The subjective takes would be the quality of each individual win. And a ranking does not objectively dictate the quality of a win because, again, the rankings themselves are not objective.

 

[Portland8242]

I'm sorry but I just can't get on board with Stipe being as good or better than prime healthy Cain. Today's HW looks different (weaker IMO) than the one Cain was owning. I say this as a massive Stipe fan.

 

[tat2man5k]

U Serious? lol

You can laugh all you want but ALOT of folks had it the same way.

 

[gono btw]

You can laugh all you want but ALOT of folks had it the same way.

no, the 1st JDS was not that close, it was realistically close during 2.5 rounds b4 Miocis started gassing.

No way Miocic could have won Rd 3-4-5....