Starting strength and boxing training

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by DoubleAAZ, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. DoubleAAZ

    DoubleAAZ Yellow Belt

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    I'm currently doing starting strength and some short runs 3-5miles. Slowly getting better at the running. Also attending a traditional UK boxing gym. Is starting strength style lifting counter productive to getting better at boxing? I train boxing twice a week and weight train when I can't get there. I also do bag work seperately and as mentioned before short runs. Is there anything exercise wise that can help make the strength gains more applicable to my boxing? Thoughts please
     
  2. Reyesnuthugr

    Reyesnuthugr Dominick Reyes Belt

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    I've seen world class dancers start lifting and it really clogs up their ability to move fluidly, it's very clunky and apparent.

    I think the leg strength will translate well. You can have strong, stiff legs and that still works great for boxing, the legs don't have to be relaxed to box well. The other muscles, however, really rely a lot on moving fluidly in order to get the correct movement, transfer and snap

    I'm not saying that lifting weights always makes people super stiff, but relative to how they want their muscles to move, it definitely tends to make them noticeably less agile, which is death in boxing.

    It can still good idea to still lift weights or get strong while you're young, BEFORE you take boxing, so you can be more sturdy, naturally strong and athletic later long after you've stopped. Trying to do them at the same time, well good luck but it's super frustrating. Not all good things work well together at the same time
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  3. Ilk

    Ilk Green Belt

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    You will not get stiff anytime soon. Incorporate proper warm up and stretching. I try to do some stretches at home at least twice per week for 30 mins. If finances allow it attend a quality yoga class and learn from a proper teacher. Stiffness comes from huge size increase and over training your CNS. As long as you do not gain significant weight over an year and do not over train you will be fine.

    In a contrary you will gain strength and develop muscles which should make you feel great and even help you in performance in boxing and running.
     
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  4. Sano

    Sano Black Belt

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    It's all about how you plan it, how your body responds to it and the intensity you're working at. There's nothing wrong with doing strength training on the side of your boxing training. That said, while some people claim that the whole stiff part is a myth, I wouldn't go that far. Especially going into it, if you're using loads and recieving stimuli that forces adaption, you will experience some increase muscle tone during the following days. DOMS makes you stiff as hell too. Having a good dynamic warmup, and doing a cooldown with some relaxed mobility and stretching at the end, can definitely help alleviate some of that, to a point. The whole being tight thing as well and bracing properly, neurologically speaking, is something you'll have to learn to "undo" in a way as well. While it's a big advantage to be able to be tight at the right time, at the right places, and increase your stability for boxing, it's also something that takes some getting used to.

    Then comes the fatigue. Tired body, tired mind, tight muscles and worse co-ordination. Especially balance and co-ordination goes a bit out the window when you're tired which will effect both your motorn learning and performance. That said, it depends a lot on what you're body is adapted to. When you've gotten used to the strength training, it will definitely effect you less, as long as you don't just keep increasing load and lifting too heavy all the time.

    I do both, but when I want to focus on the boxing aspects I tone it down or simply don't do any strength training at all, besides a few exercises to keep the body active and ready. That's why you can periodize your training.

    Long story short, do your starting strength and do your best to rest and recover, then when you reach a certain point you might want to reconsider how you're planning your training. The injury prevention, strength and stability benefits from a good S&C program is definitely worth it, even if you have to taper off for extended period of times.
     
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  5. Ilk

    Ilk Green Belt

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    What this man said. He helped me a ton with planing my work outs and gaining some strength while boxing and playing soccer.
     
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  6. LongDongSilver

    LongDongSilver Banned Banned

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    gymnastics bruhh
     
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  7. jojoRed

    jojoRed Brown Belt

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    All fighters lift, they dont lift heavy at all. Some lift heavier on their offseason, however they dont get clunky and stiff. Know why? Stretches and yoga.
     
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  8. jgarner

    jgarner Red Belt

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    Yes you should be strength training. Proper strength training in the major compound movements such at the barbell squat, deadlift, and press will train your CNS to produce more force and increase the strength and stability of your shoulder girdle, core, back and hips. This is how you produce force in the punch and kick.

    Some people claim that strength training will make you a slower boxer and decrease your flexibility. For one, I think all the evidence of sports science shows that the stronger you are, the more force you can produce. Technique is important and you need good technique, but being stronger will allow you to strike that much harder after your technique is good. If strength training made you slow, then why are NFL players fast? It's common sense. As far as deceased flexibility, if you're squatting to full depth you should be pretty flexible. Your joints should be going through a full range of motion. You should definitely be flexible enough for what hiding requires.


    That's two different situations. For one, if they continued for a while their bodies could adjust. Second, they have no real need to produce force. Moving your arms gracefully is all the way to the left on the speed/strength curve while boxing is closer to the middle. Producing force in sports is all the same. You need to get stronger to produce more once technique is solid.
     
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  9. aus101

    aus101 Black Belt

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    If I was you I would skip, sprint and walk for cardio (other than what you do in your boxing sessions), and keep up with starting strength (but don’t forget to stretch and stay flexible).

    Run if you want to become a runner etc. If it’s not sport specific conditioning you are doing then you want it to be high intensity intervals or low intensity steady state but above all low impact (as you are already participating in a sport and strength training on top of that).

    Walking is low impact and sprinting/skipping highly intensive (so overall joint damage is minimal opposed to say running).
     
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  10. Sano

    Sano Black Belt

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    Sorry but I gotta expand a little on this one. While it's certainly true that a stronger athlete is a better athlete, the force velocity curve is an extremely simplified way of understanding force production, power and speed. Sure there's some correlation between max strength and power, but when it comes to speed it's a lot more questionable. Power as defined here is the ability to produce a lot of force against significant resistance. Speed is the more important attribute when it comes to boxing. What the research really shows it that many factors influency why, and how, someone is explosive and/or fast. Max strength, or maximum force production, seems to be one factor, but beyond novice/intermediate levels they look to be marginal. Other factors like contractile velocity, RFD, mechanics, motor engrams seem to be more important and strength adaptions seem to be highly velocity specific. Meaning that it's not just about how much force you produce, but how fast you can produce it, and that the correlation is not always linear.

    You see this in a clinical setting as well. Some people are very strong on the compounds, but can't produce force quickly and are slow as shit. However, some people are also very strong on the compounds and can produce a lot of force quickly and are fast. I'm not arguing against doing strength training here, I'm pointing out that max strength doesn't necessarily correlate with increased velocity. Explosive characteristics are much harder to train than max force production.

    The reason why NFL players are as fast as they are are 1) Genetics. Fiber type characteristics, neurological efficiency, contractile velocity and properties, inner moment arms, so on. A lot of this is highly genetic. Genetics is the number one by far, they were born fast and they are build for speed. 2) Training sprinting and running technique and doing the run thousands of times. 3) Doing strength/explosive/plyo training. However, running fast as a big dude with gear on is a very different from having fast hands. You can look at some of the strongest guys in MMA, they are not necessarily faster than the others (even the ones that directly came from the NFL). Max strength definitely helps more in grappling though, compared to boxing.

    If you want to stick with the force-velocity curve, boxing is a sport almost as far to the right as you can be.

    Another point I want to drive home is that while compounds gives you certain stability elements, they don't really stabilise your joints as much as you'd like to think. Without getting too technical, as soon as you stand on say one leg, the stability requirements of your glutes and core are different. You have to stabilise against your hips shifting and rotating, all elements that you don't train during regular compounds. In regards to the upper body, lifting heavy also highly recruits something called the global mobilisators, which are the stronger muscles mostly responsible for big movements. They do stabilize to some degree, but smaller muscles like the rotator cuff, delts (especially medial), serratus, trap3 and others simply don't get a lot of work in most people. You also don't have the neurological element of stabilisation, which is in some regards a skill.

    On the mobility side, while it's true that a deep squat (not everyone can or should hit very deep squats, including athletes) gives a stretch, and other forms of weightraining actually have a good impact on mobility, there are several muscles and joint movements you don't get mobilised. There's no significant internal or external rotation of the hips, no adductor mobilisation, no abductor mobilisation really and so on. Muscles, and especially fascia, likes to be moved about and need that in order to move efficiently. Some might have really good mobility in general, but basic compounds, while being a good addon, simply don't address it nearly enough if the person doesn't.

    If you want to talk about force production, good joint movement is key. I wrote a short, but detailed, piece on some of the elements of power production in a punch if you want to check it out: http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/125416715/

    I also highly suggest checking this vid out for anyone in any rotational sport (which is what boxing is afterall):

    In the end, I'd like to reiterate that I believe any athlete should do a proper S&C program and that it helps performance a great deal. Compounds being a part of that program. I just feel it's important to be realistic about the limitations of said lifts, and that after the point of diminishing returns you'd be better off using other training modalities. Also it's important to note that different sports require different programs and you'd want different attributes, to a certain extent.

    A well rounded, planned out periodized program suited both for GPP, and the sport, is the best option.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  11. Sano

    Sano Black Belt

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    Missed the mark a bit there my man. The majority of boxers, BJJ guys and nak muays dont actively lift. Many MMA guys don't either. At my old gym pretty much the minority did any heavy lifting at any time, and we're talking about guys in the UFC. They did do S&C though, but in different ways.

    A lot of fighters are also stiff, even if they don't lift, and few do extensive stretching and yoga, especially the boxers. I guess it depends on the art.
     
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  12. DoubleAAZ

    DoubleAAZ Yellow Belt

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    Thanks for all your responses I will be thinking about this more as I plan ahead. I will definitely have to re read bits and pieces to fully understand it.
    I have always been fairly strong in the upper body but after putting on about 3 stone after the last 10 years I felt like I wasn't strong enough for my weight. I used to wrestle and do bjj and definitely didn't feel strong enough for my weight class at my new weight. I've always been able to deadlift about double bodyweight without much training but my squat numbers sucked a bunch of dicks. I always felt that I needed to get the squats/leg strength up before trying explosive or plyometric work. Which I'm not sure about now. I am stretching quite regularly and I feel that punching is definitely faster and looser when I haven't benched for about a week. I thought that I should carry on strength training and that if I were to stop the strength gains would stay for a while. I have been doing a boxing circuit at home which includes a slam ball to the ground and rotating each side throwing to my punch bag. Also just picking it up off the floor as many times. All exercises 5 minutes the ball is 20kgs. It messes me up. I think I might get a lighter ball to help with my speed. Thank you again everyone that has responded
     
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  13. jojoRed

    jojoRed Brown Belt

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    I didnt mean lifting as in curls etc, I meant as in squats, cleans, deadlifts etc which is inclided in SnC I guess. However they do go heavier in the offseason, most BJJ guys sacrifices strength for technique but that doesnt mean they dont get bullied by those slightly lesser skilled and competent grapplers in MMA.

    I dont consider anything other than MMA, fighting imo.

    There isnt one fits all in fighting though, not all fighters train the same and my bad for trying to say that they all do.
     

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