Starting OLY lifts. What to expect?

[senri]

Here is a good warmup on the subject. Learn and take it all inside of you....

 

[SRN]

So what's the verdict on training strentgh before starting Oly? Should a beginner spend time let's say a few months doing squats, DL and so on before he starts training Oly or that's not really necessary?

 

[senri]

So what's the verdict on training strentgh before starting Oly? Should a beginner spend time let's say a few months doing squats, DL and so on before he starts training Oly or that's not really necessary?

No straight to olympic style weightlifting emphasizing on technique and mobility. Strength work will take care of itself when lifter stalls at a certain weight.

Focusing on strength can be discouraging for lifters who will need to start light in order to hit all positions efficiently, patience will pay off in the long run. The nature of the sport takes more then it gives, remember that. Also powerlifters or bodybuilders tend to cheat the lifts by using the big movers to get the weight up woth inefficient tech. You can only get away with that for so long until the bar bites you in the ass.

Dont even bother with deadlifts.

 

[SRN]

No straight to olympic style weightlifting emphasizing on technique and mobility. Strength work will take care of itself when lifter stalls at a certain weight.

Focusing on strength can be discouraging for lifters who will need to start light in order to hit all positions efficiently, patience will pay off in the long run. The nature of the sport takes more then it gives, remember that. Also powerlifters or bodybuilders tend to cheat the lifts by using the big movers to get the weight up woth inefficient tech. You can only get away with that for so long until the bar bites you in the ass.

Dont even bother with deadlifts.

Thanks man, I'll go straight to Oly then. Why no bother with deadlift tho?

 

[deadshot138]

Thanks man, I'll go straight to Oly then. Why no bother with deadlift tho?

They say deadlifting teaches you to pull too slowly. I dont know how true that is. The program I'm running has Romanian deadlifts but no conventional.

Honestly you won't have to deadlift, you'll be deadlifting every time you clean and snatch. Also most programs have snatch and clean pulls, which are deadlifts essentially with a jump and shrug at the end.

 

[senri]

Thanks man, I'll go straight to Oly then. Why no bother with deadlift tho?

In order to do a good deadlift your shoulders could be behind the bar to maximize your weight to overcome the bars inertia and lift it off, it is advisable to still lift with the shoulders over the bar, shoulders retracted etc etc all that good stuff many of the guys in this forum can explain to you better then me. The goal is to minimize the distance by playing around with the angles of your joints to make the lift. You see some guys roll the weight away from them, then back towards them and lift it off the ground to bring it close to the center of gravity as they rise with the bar, in certain cases the hips are high in the conventional deadlift position, you also have sumo which has little positional strength carryover to the classic lifts. Regardless a constant is that the hips are higher in a conventional deadlift position then in a clean deadlift or olympic weightlifters position for pulling weights off the ground.

In oly lifting your shoulders are always OVER the bar, you want the bar as close your body as possible, you will see scars on lifters shins because of the constant scraping of the skin and flesh from keeping the bar close off of the first pull. The further away it is from your center of gravity the heavier it will feel, and the worse your positions get where you end up missing every single time by either catching it too forward or yanking it too much and catching it backwards.

Also for deadlifts if you go heavy you will tend to chronically tax your nervous system, so you can't even lift efficiently or be properly focused in the next coming training sessions as you're still recovering from the fatigue, not too mention you are CONSTANTLY pulling so why even bother with deadlifts? Both classical lifts you have to pull from the ground, your whole back/system is getting worked.

You will get some folks pointing to the contrary with exceptions like elite lifters in Klokov or other russians, chinese lifters who do heavy deads. But we must not forget they are completely developed competent elite world class level lifters before using those exercises, they have fixed their weaknesses and mastered the movement essentially so they know what they can get away with. For the rest of those who are learning, developing lifters don't even worry about it.

 

[senri]

They say deadlifting teaches you to pull too slowly. I dont know how true that is. The program I'm running has Romanian deadlifts but no conventional.

Honestly you won't have to deadlift, you'll be deadlifting every time you clean and snatch. Also most programs have snatch and clean pulls, which are deadlifts essentially with a jump and shrug at the end.

You actually want to pull slow on the first pull, That way you provide yourself adequate position and time for you to focus on the second pull where the bar starts to accelerate when it passes your knee joint. The third pull is literally you pulling yourself under the bar. Beginners yank the bar and try to use momentum to time the rise of the bar to get the highest height from the pull in order to go under. Big problems there for one...

1 - focusing on the pulling the weight too fast from the getgo the lifters offset their timing through the whole process and in the end they can't even in some cases pull under the bar as the weight will be to far or not high enough. It throws off your second pull big time. Bad news bears.

2 - They rush the lift so they don't even hit proper positions, they will pull to short or pull to long and not get under the bar fast enough. If they pull too short then they are in a rush to get themselves under the bar impatiently, this is where you will get the DIVERS. Those that love to get under but they miss often in the bottom position as the bar is not at a high clearance for them catch it in the first place.

THE POWER comes from the SECOND pull, you don't want to mess that up. First pull is critical in setting up the second pull, rush that shit and you will have a shitty second pull then everything else fall apart. It's counter productive to think about this because as the weight gets heavier your upper body will make you feel how heavy that weight is when you initially pull it slowly, your lats and upper back will strain. However when you hit the second pull the legs will remind you that It's the one doing all the work not your upper body, you will quickly realize how light and effortless it is if done properly, magic of technique.

There is a fine balance to all of this, hence the frustration.

 

[deadshot138]

You actually want to pull slow on the first pull, That way you provide yourself adequate position and time for you to focus on the second pull where the bar starts to accelerate when it passes your knee joint. The third pull is literally you pulling yourself under the bar. Beginners yank the bar and try to use momentum to time the rise of the bar to get the highest height from the pull in order to go under. Big problems there for one...

1 - focusing on the pulling the weight too fast from the getgo the lifters offset their timing through the whole process and in the end they can't even in some cases pull under the bar as the weight will be to far or not high enough. It throws off your second pull big time. Bad news bears.

2 - They rush the lift so they don't even hit proper positions, they will pull to short or pull to long and not get under the bar fast enough. If they pull too short then they are in a rush to get themselves under the bar impatiently, this is where you will get the DIVERS. Those that love to get under but they miss often in the bottom position as the bar is not at a high clearance for them catch it in the first place.

THE POWER comes from the SECOND pull, you don't want to mess that up. First pull is critical in setting up the second pull, rush that shit and you will have a shitty second pull then everything else fall apart. It's counter productive to think about this because as the weight gets heavier your upper body will make you feel how heavy that weight is when you initially pull it slowly, your lats and upper back will strain. However when you hit the second pull the legs will remind you that It's the one doing all the work not your upper body, you will quickly realize how light and effortless it is if done properly, magic of technique.

There is a fine balance to all of this, hence the frustration.

I'm not sure how the deadlift is useless then unless it's just superfluous due to all the cleaning and snatching.

Clarence Kennedy cleans 500lbs and deadlifts 750. But he says he only deadlifts every few months. Could cleans improve your deadlift but somehow deadlifts won't improve your clean?

 

[senri]

I'm not sure how the deadlift is useless then unless it's just superfluous due to all the cleaning and snatching.

Clarence Kennedy cleans 500lbs and deadlifts 750. But he says he only deadlifts every few months. Could cleans improve your deadlift but somehow deadlifts won't improve your clean?

he does it for fun. He also is doing deads and cleans and squats more because he can't jerk as often at the moment.

Deads take from training progression, lifters progress just fine without them. It's not necessary.

 

[Kiwi Tricker]

I'm not sure how the deadlift is useless then unless it's just superfluous due to all the cleaning and snatching.

Clarence Kennedy cleans 500lbs and deadlifts 750. But he says he only deadlifts every few months. Could cleans improve your deadlift but somehow deadlifts won't improve your clean?

Yes, cleans will improve your deadlift. Deadlifts won't necessarily improve your clean. Main reason is due to the set-up, positioning, and pulling mechanics being different between the two. Deadlifts can make you stronger, but teach poor mechanics for the clean, as well as not having any carryover to improving the second pull either.

 

[deadshot138]

Yes, cleans will improve your deadlift. Deadlifts won't necessarily improve your clean. Main reason is due to the set-up, positioning, and pulling mechanics being different between the two. Deadlifts can make you stronger, but teach poor mechanics for the clean, as well as not having any carryover to improving the second pull either.

Second pull initiates mid thigh and your shoulders cover the bar more when cleaning than deadlifting right?

 

[SRN]

@deadshot138 @senri many thanks! And yeah I was thinking about Klokov when I asked that question lol

 

[senri]

Second pull initiates mid thigh and your shoulders cover the bar more when cleaning than deadlifting right?

Yes

 

[USMCGixxer6]

Absolutely not, Mark Bell is highly knowledgeable in powerlifting not oly lifting. He is familiar with the basics of it but that is the extent of his knowledge. Bench is the singly biggest detriment to ones jerk as it hinder the shoulder mobility and flexibility to perform the lifts efficiently. Being mobile is equally as important as being strong when it comes to olympic style weightlifting.

Just going through the motions with the bar and a long wooden stick is enough to get warmed up importantly is you take your time. Using bands to do dynamic stretches is also useful, stretch too much is not good as it can hinder power development in the classical lifts.

Not disagreeing but plenty of weightlifters (high level ones even) have squatted first in a session before sn & c+j.

It's not very practical but I think I had my best success doing squats and pulls in the morning and then training the lifts in the afternoon/evening. Then you get out of college and work a real job and can't do that shit anymore, ha.

 

[senri]

Not disagreeing but plenty of weightlifters (high level ones even) have squatted first in a session before sn & c+j.

It's not very practical but I think I had my best success doing squats and pulls in the morning and then training the lifts in the afternoon/evening. Then you get out of college and work a real job and can't do that shit anymore, ha.

That wasn't what i was even contesting. What you say is perfectly fine, nothing wrong with that, doing two different sessions in a day if you can get away with it, and you have enough work capacity to recover from them is very useful. I was objecting to the poster saying bench can be very useful to oly lifters, which it does not. It is even less useful then a conventional deadlift.