STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

If you have seen STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI, how would you rate it?


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You know who's great in the original trilogy? Han Solo. He has a personal story that reaches a conclusion that is originally his story alone but then involves the other characters, he grows as a character, and he's an entry point to certain aspects universe. The new trilogy needs the wider forms of a Han Solo-like character.
They're all great.
The characters have depth and arcs. We care about them. The stories have depth and arcs. We wanted things to go right for our heroes.

I like these characters but I feel that now they're hemmed in a tight spot writing wise. We'll see.
 
His argument though I think reflects a clear weakness in the film, painting Luke from the OT as "a little light" with the new film having him as "an imperfect human being". Even as far back as ANH Luke needs more than a little convincing to take up the heroic role
???
He takes it up as soon as his aunt, uncle, and blue milk are rekt.
That's like forty minutes into the film.
 
I think we can all agree that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher would have produced better looking offspring.
 
And by god if a man fucks up and a lady doesn’t, the whole thing is about how white men are the devil. Also never forget the Jews want to take your money and give it to gay black women

I suppose my question is...if you don't see the feminist agenda in The Last Jedi, what would a movie have to do for you to see a feminist agenda in that film, and would you be capable of detecting one at all?

The vast majority of the people who find issues with The Last Jedi in this regard have no problem with Alien/Aliens or The Terminator/T2 or Mad Max: Fury Road or GI Jane or Erin Brockovich or Working Girl or Underworld. Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, GI Jane and Working Girl are among some of the films I would recommend most highly to anyone, and they all feature strong female protagonists (arguably a MAJOR supporting character in the Terminator films).

I don't consider any of these films to be full of third wave feminist propaganda but The Last Jedi may be the most blatant example I have seen in a major film, and almost certainly the most blatant example I've ever seen in a blockbuster.

The people who are reasonably asking why Star Wars has been turned into a feminist battleground never had any problems with Ripley or Sarah Connor, or for that matter, strong women in Star Wars like Leia and Mon Mothma. Star Wars was ahead of its time with strong female characters, including the military leader of the entire resistance at a time when few women were in the military in the real world. People have a right to be confused or even offended if all of a sudden it's made into a vessel for preaching against toxic masculinity, when it was always a franchise that promoted strong characters and virtues in both men and women.
 
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It's not so much that people demand a clear protagonist for every film. Tarantino films receive a fair bit of praise despite often lacking one.

It's more that it's usually a good idea to have one, and that people walked out of the Phantom Menace bored. They weren't sitting there asking themselves who the protagonist was the whole time. They just walked out not liking the annoying kid, not liking the monotone queen, and having been bored stiff by Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor. There wasn't a character that clearly drove the movie, and all four semi-options either spoke in an emotionless monotone or were a little kid that didn't know how to act.
Everyone liked Darth Maul, that s about all I can recall liking. I thought Ewan was a good actor and was the best choice for a young Obi-Wan, but he and Liam we're snoozes until Maul showed up.

I liked Watto and Sebulba too
 
Everyone liked Darth Maul, that s about all I can recall liking. I thought Ewan was a good actor and was the best choice for a young Obi-Wan, but he and Liam we're snoozes until Maul showed up.

I liked Watto and Sebulba too

That was another good moment, the first time Darth Maul lights up the second end of his lightsaber. Between that and his pacing back and forth while Obi Wan waits behind the force field, he basically has two of maybe...five moments / scenes I actually legitimately like from the prequels, and in what, fifteen total minutes of screen time, if that? Definitely the P4P king of the prequels in terms of payoff per second of screen time.

Ewan was perfect casting. He just had nothing to do in the first movie except sit around and be boring. We never really needed to see him as a teenage trainee. I mean, it's better than Vader age six and Boba Fett age four or whatever they were, but who needs him quietly following Liam Neeson around and quietly doing what he's told, respectfully asking a question every half hour and trying to figure out if the ship can handle enough of whatever supplies Padme was ordering.

Watto? That flying quasi-Jewish thing? I guess he was all right. But introducing a slave owner just makes Obi Wan and Qui Gon and Anakin all look like assholes when they leave Anakin's mother there to rot for ten years.

Sebulba? I guess he was okay. I mean, he did do his best to put an end to that neverending pod race scene.
 
Everyone liked Darth Maul, that s about all I can recall liking. I thought Ewan was a good actor and was the best choice for a young Obi-Wan, but he and Liam we're snoozes until Maul showed up.

I liked Watto and Sebulba too
Fuck Darth Maul with a double ended dildo
 
He's one of those actors that looks bad in some shots and looks good in others

I was kidding. He's not a particularly handsome man, but he does have a slight resemblance to Harrison Ford, like a son that got a few of the features but not the whole package.

He could be the son of Harrison Ford and that beak woman working the bridge controls of the Resistance ship in The Last Jedi.
 
I suppose my question is...if you don't see the feminist agenda in The Last Jedi, what would a movie have to do for you to see a feminist agenda in that film, and would you be capable of detecting one at all?

The vast majority of the people who find issues with The Last Jedi in this regard have no problem with Alien/Aliens or The Terminator/T2 or Mad Max: Fury Road or GI Jane or Erin Brockovich or Working Girl or Underworld. Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, GI Jane and Working Girl are among some of the films I would recommend most highly to anyone, and they all feature strong female protagonists (arguably a MAJOR supporting character in the Terminator films).

I don't consider any of these films to be full of third wave feminist propaganda but The Last Jedi may be the most blatant example I have seen in a major film, and almost certainly the most blatant example I've ever seen in a blockbuster.

The people who are reasonably asking why Star Wars has been turned into a feminist battleground never had any problems with Ripley or Sarah Connor, or for that matter, strong women in Star Wars like Leia and Mon Mothma. Star Wars was ahead of its time with strong female characters, including the military leader of the entire resistance at a time when few women were in the military in the real world. People have a right to be confused or even offended if all of a sudden it's made into a vessel for preaching against toxic masculinity, when it was always a franchise that promoted strong characters and virtues in both men and women.

You seem to be confusingg "third wave feminism" with "weak writing".
 
You seem to be confusingg "third wave feminism" with "weak writing".

This movie has its share of both. I think a good measure of the weak writing could have been avoided if it hadn't been made to conform with feminist scenarios (Poe needs to mutiny incorrectly against a female Admiral, Finn needs to be ineffective relative to Rose on the side mission, etc.).
 
I suppose my question is...if you don't see the feminist agenda in The Last Jedi, what would a movie have to do for you to see a feminist agenda in that film, and would you be capable of detecting one at all?

The vast majority of the people who find issues with The Last Jedi in this regard have no problem with Alien/Aliens or The Terminator/T2 or Mad Max: Fury Road or GI Jane or Erin Brockovich or Working Girl or Underworld. Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, GI Jane and Working Girl are among some of the films I would recommend most highly to anyone, and they all feature strong female protagonists (arguably a MAJOR supporting character in the Terminator films).

I don't consider any of these films to be full of third wave feminist propaganda but The Last Jedi may be the most blatant example I have seen in a major film, and almost certainly the most blatant example I've ever seen in a blockbuster.

The people who are reasonably asking why Star Wars has been turned into a feminist battleground never had any problems with Ripley or Sarah Connor, or for that matter, strong women in Star Wars like Leia and Mon Mothma. Star Wars was ahead of its time with strong female characters, including the military leader of the entire resistance at a time when few women were in the military in the real world. People have a right to be confused or even offended if all of a sudden it's made into a vessel for preaching against toxic masculinity, when it was always a franchise that promoted strong characters and virtues in both men and women.

The people accusing the haters of being misogynists never answer this question.
It's easier to just put us all in a box and just call us women haters, despite it making no sense.
I have literally never, ever heard anyone complain about Sarah Conor, Ripley, or Milia Jovovich in her Resident Evil movies. No one says "oh, a girl couldn't do that". I never even thought about it, because those were all strong, built up characters. Them being women was secondary
Who complained about Theoron in Fury Road, or Scarlet as Black Widow?
Who complained about PRINCESS LEIA as general of the army?!? Nobody.
It has nothing to do with hating women, or not being able to take women in strong, leadership positions.

But it is very clear when a movie puts an agenda before a character.
Wanting to have a strong female at the center of the movie is fine. But whether it's male or female, it has to be a strong character before anything else.
 
What is difficult about determining a great character?
The characters didn't even have to be great, i would have settled for 'good', or 'interesting '
It's not they're 'bad' characters, they're just nothing. One dimensional, and uninteresting.
Because it's a matter of taste, and because of the nature of art.

Everyone knows how to make a joke. There's a set-up, there's a punchline, and the humor occurs when the latter defies the former. However, not everyone can write a joke, let alone a good one. (Believe me: I've been told this many times.) Moreover, you'll readily agree that despite the construction of a joke, good or bad, there are jokes some people laugh at and some do not. Why do you think that is?

Using TLJ, and say, @Tiny, as an example. He would say the joke is only geared for little kids. @Bob Gray would say it's not that he doesn't get the joke, he just doesn't like it. I would say it's a great joke. Now, this is the same movie but with three (kinda) different reactions. What is different?

This is not a roundabout way of saying you are one dimensional and uninteresting, but the way you look at things DOES play a heavy role in what that thing becomes and the way you look at things IS a product of who you become. I say "become(s)" because I believe perceptions and therefore things often do change. While it's unlikely that you would hear a joke at one point that you didn't think was funny but then after some time and reflection and hearing again found it hilarious, but it is conceivable.

Who is this Admiral Holdo? Why is she considered a bad ass?
Who is Rey? Why is she so powerful?
Who is Rose? Finn? Luke? Ren? Snoke? What is driving these people? Is this all just about staying alive?
These characters are so god damn shallow. The movie does nothing to tell us about any of these people or their motivations.
How would you like them to express these things? Honest question.

Because Holdo is the Vice Admiral, and she is a badass due to her war record, and by what she does at the end of the film. Rose fights for her beliefs, Finn discovers his resolve, Luke regains his identity, Ren runs away from himself, Snoke is evil. I don't make this up.

Would you prefer if someone issued a speech or declaration? Do you wish for more flashbacks into personal histories? How do you want these people and their motivations depicted, because I saw these things clearly onscreen.

It's not a matter of whether they're there, it's a matter of how they are conveyed.

So -- why is it that Rey giving meaningful looks, surmounting obstacles, bending to superior forces, and rescuing the survivors that is particularly shallow to you? What is it about the reveal that she is frightened of herself that makes her shallow? It just wasn't enough, right? It wasn't satisfying. But it's not because she's poorly written, or that she's not a great character. It's because you, Rogan, or whoever, me -- anybody -- who allows her to be a great character.

I know it's crazy, but think about it.

Han was a great character, Leia was, Vader was, young Luke. They had purpose and personality, a drive and goal. It really isn't that difficult
Yeah, yeah it is. It's EXACTLY as difficult as it is for you to swallow what I said above.

I suppose my question is...if you don't see the feminist agenda in The Last Jedi, what would a movie have to do for you to see a feminist agenda in that film, and would you be capable of detecting one at all?
I can. The latest PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN film has several lines, both dialogue and subplot, dedicated to a plucky young girl who "doesn't need to be understood, only believed" and is arbitrarily handed things by men in such fashion that simultaneously defeats its own purpose. Because how can a woman attain agency if men must constantly remind each other to give it to her? THANKS, DISNEY.
 
I suppose my question is...if you don't see the feminist agenda in The Last Jedi, what would a movie have to do for you to see a feminist agenda in that film, and would you be capable of detecting one at all?

The vast majority of the people who find issues with The Last Jedi in this regard have no problem with Alien/Aliens or The Terminator/T2 or Mad Max: Fury Road or GI Jane or Erin Brockovich or Working Girl or Underworld. Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, GI Jane and Working Girl are among some of the films I would recommend most highly to anyone, and they all feature strong female protagonists (arguably a MAJOR supporting character in the Terminator films).

I don't consider any of these films to be full of third wave feminist propaganda but The Last Jedi may be the most blatant example I have seen in a major film, and almost certainly the most blatant example I've ever seen in a blockbuster.

The people who are reasonably asking why Star Wars has been turned into a feminist battleground never had any problems with Ripley or Sarah Connor, or for that matter, strong women in Star Wars like Leia and Mon Mothma. Star Wars was ahead of its time with strong female characters, including the military leader of the entire resistance at a time when few women were in the military in the real world. People have a right to be confused or even offended if all of a sudden it's made into a vessel for preaching against toxic masculinity, when it was always a franchise that promoted strong characters and virtues in both men and women.

I would take the reverse view myself, alot of the films you mention are I think actually far more committed to delivering a feminist message, its just that because of that this message takes a form that you find more palatable since it has more depth and balance to it.

The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi to me though feel like there something more cynical, basically co opting a feminist message as a bit of a shortcut to cover for less than great writing. Rey just being "strong" as her defining trait for example rather than a character of depth or the almost total lack of depth to the Poe/Holdo plot where gender alone is pushed as a a reason.

Its a strange situation really as again I felt Rogue One last year was worthy of being mentioned with the other films you brought up, a film with a female protagonist that was actually built up as a character of depth and never fell back to cheap co opting of politics. Maybe just the people involved were more skilled or perhaps Disney are taking a different view of the "saga" and anthology films?
 
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What agenda?

26734265_816643288527339_8067186635809845812_n.jpg
 
I would take the reverse view myself, alot of the films you mention are I think actually far more committed to delivering a feminist message, its just that because of that this message takes a form that you find more palatable since it has more depth and balance to it.

The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi to me though feel like there something more cynical, basically co opting a feminist message as a bit of a shortcut to cover for less than great writing. Rey just being "strong" as her defining trait for example rather than a character of depth or the almost total lack of depth to the Poe/Holdo plot where gender alone is pushed as a a reason.

Its a strange situation really as again I felt Rogue One last year was worthy of being mentioned with the other films you brought up, a film with a female protagonist that was actually built up as a character of depth and never fell back to cheap co opting of politics. Maybe just the people involved were more skilled or perhaps Disney are taking a different view of the "saga" and anthology films?

I think The Last Jedi is in a league quite different from the other films I listed for a number of reasons.

Rey being "strong because she is, deal with it" is something I could potentially chalk up to just bad writing in general. Bad scripts are rife with Mary Sues and Gary Stus and I guess soon there will be transgendered Mary Stus that are gifted the ability of being the best at everything just because they're so awesome.

Movies like Aliens, Working Girl and GI Jane are great because they feature not only a strong female protagonist, but a strong female villain. That's something we certainly didn't see in The Last Jedi. And that's setting aside the fact that in those movies, the protagonists actually are strong and overcome things. Demi Moore isn't gifted "being the best soldier just because" by any stretch of the imagination, nor is Melanie Griffith simply the perfect fusion of Steve Jobs and Warren Buffett in Working Girl. They work their way up, step by step, obstacle by obstacle. There are male villains, but they aren't all just cowards, retards or mustache twirling evildoers.

With something like The Terminator, the message is that woman are capable and women are important, and like the above films I listed, that women CAN achieve things. It isn't that women are better than men, that men are toxic, that women make better men than men themselves, that men need to defer to women, or any combination of these. Reese has to save Sarah, and Sarah has to save Reese. Sarah Connor develops her strengths continuously throughout Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. At the end of T1, Reese collapses and is ready to just let the Terminator finish him off, until Sarah pulls him to his feet. It isn't because men are pathetic; it's because everyone is fallible and everyone to needs to lean on somebody sometimes.

Ripley likewise develops her strengths over the course of the first two Alien films.

But what really sets the Last Jedi apart is how a new female character comes in and the existing male heroes are diminished in the service of showing how much better she is. Luke is turned into a pathetic, cowardly, child-mind-raping evil asshole, in order to make Rey better than him. Rian Johnson couldn't or wouldn't write Rey to be strong on her own merits, so he just tore Luke down to say, well at least she's better than THIS asshole. Stop calling her a Mary Sue, she beat your male hero, deal with it.

I don't know what the equivalent scenario would be elsewhere. Ripley and Connor were there from the start in their own franchises. I guess the best example would be if the Neill Blomkamp Alien 2.5 is actually made, and it's a misogynist film where a new MALE hero we've never seen before comes in and makes better decisions than Ripley all the way through, turning her into Gorman from Aliens where she fucks everything up, is a bad leader, lousy under pressure. See how good the new male hero is? We're not going to write him well, but at least he's better than Ripley, so deal with it. Kill the past. Now Alien is for MEN.

But like Star Wars, Alien was never a gender politics statement or battleground. It was just a movie filled with several interesting characters, and in the end the most capable one happened to be Ripley, a woman. Ridley Scott didn't make Tom Skerritt and Yaphet Kotto into pathetic losers to show that Ripley was better. James Cameron didn't make Michael Biehn piss his pants when he saw the Alien. He was strong, so was Lance Henriksen, so was Sigourney Weaver, so was Jenette Goldstein.

If they want Rey to be a strong character, then write her as one. But tearing everyone else down around her just makes her the tallest person in a crowd of toddlers. It doesn't make her tall.

I agree that the Poe/Holdo thing was blatant propaganda, and that the messages in The Last Jedi may have been largely marketing-driven to take advantage of current social trends. I mean, what else is the point of a purple haired admiral? But I think demonstrating that Luke is inferior to the new female hero is part of the film's intended political message, and not simply a more benign weak writing of Rey.
 
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I suppose my question is...if you don't see the feminist agenda in The Last Jedi, what would a movie have to do for you to see a feminist agenda in that film, and would you be capable of detecting one at all?

The vast majority of the people who find issues with The Last Jedi in this regard have no problem with Alien/Aliens or The Terminator/T2 or Mad Max: Fury Road or GI Jane or Erin Brockovich or Working Girl or Underworld. Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, GI Jane and Working Girl are among some of the films I would recommend most highly to anyone, and they all feature strong female protagonists (arguably a MAJOR supporting character in the Terminator films).

I don't consider any of these films to be full of third wave feminist propaganda but The Last Jedi may be the most blatant example I have seen in a major film, and almost certainly the most blatant example I've ever seen in a blockbuster.

The people who are reasonably asking why Star Wars has been turned into a feminist battleground never had any problems with Ripley or Sarah Connor, or for that matter, strong women in Star Wars like Leia and Mon Mothma. Star Wars was ahead of its time with strong female characters, including the military leader of the entire resistance
at a time when few women were in the military in the real world. People have a right to be confused or even offended if all of a sudden it's made into a vessel for preaching against toxic masculinity, when it was always a franchise that promoted strong characters and virtues
in both men and women.

Those movies all came out before this terrified right wing hysteria about feminist agendas started becoming popular.

If you see a "feminist agenda" in this movie you're delusional.

People like you will read anything into anything to satisfy your weird little fetish with conversations like these. In the first movie a black man got whipped across the back by a white guy with a flaming cross, that same white guy nearly stole his girl in the second movie. I could get deeper and deeper into that nonsense but I won't because I'd be making connections that aren't reasonable.

You are just being a wanker. End of story. Your arguments don't hold any water. The most powerful people in the movie are men. The main battle is between two men. The main conflict in the movie is the conflict between two men. A man (Finn) kills a woman (Captain Phasma) who he escaped from and was able to overcome even though she had a male ally who betrayed him.

I could go on and on with this. But I won't bother. Because arguing with a fool gets a man nowhere.
 
I think The Last Jedi is in a league quite different from the other films I listed for a number of reasons.

Rey being "strong because she is, deal with it" is something I could potentially chalk up to just bad writing in general. Bad scripts are rife with Mary Sues and Gary Stus and I guess soon there will be transgendered Mary Stus that are gifted the ability of being the best at everything just because they're so awesome.

Movie like Aliens, Working Girl and GI Jane are great because they feature not only a strong female protagonist, but a strong female villain. That's something we certainly didn't see in The Last Jedi. And that's setting aside the fact that in those movies, the protagonists actually are strong and overcome things. Demi Moore isn't gifted "being the best soldier just because" by any stretch of the imagination, nor is Melanie Griffith simply the perfect fusion of Steve Jobs and Warren Buffett in Working Girl. They work their way up, step by step, obstacle by obstacle. There are male villains, but they aren't all just cowards, retards or mustache twirling evildoers.

With something like The Terminator, the message is that woman are capable and women are important, and like the above films I listed, that women CAN achieve things. It isn't that women are better than men, that men are toxic, that women make better men than men themselves, that men need to defer to women, or any combination of these. Reese has to save Sarah, and Sarah has to save Reese. Sarah Connor develops her strengths continuously throughout Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. At the end of T1, Reese collapses and is ready to just let the Terminator finish him off, until Sarah pulls him to his feet. It isn't because men are pathetic; it's because everyone is fallible and everyone to needs to lean on somebody sometimes.

Ripley likewise develops her strengths over the course of the first two Alien films.

But what really sets the Last Jedi apart is how a new female character comes in and the existing male heroes are diminished in the service of showing how much better she is. Luke is turned into a pathetic, cowardly, child-mind-raping evil asshole, in order to make Rey better than him. Rian Johnson couldn't or wouldn't write Rey to be strong on her own merits, so he just tore Luke down to say, well at least she's better than THIS asshole. Stop calling her a Mary Sue, she beat your male hero, deal with it.

I don't know what the equivalent scenario would be elsewhere. Ripley and Connor were there from the start in their own franchises. I guess the best example would be if the Neill Blomkamp Alien 2.5 is actually made, and it's a misogynist film where a new MALE hero we've never seen before comes in and makes better decisions than Ripley all the way through, turning her into Gorman from Aliens where she fucks everything up, is a bad leader, lousy under pressure. See how good the new male hero is? We're not going to write him well, but at least he's better than Ripley, so deal with it. Kill the past. Now Alien is for MEN.

But like Star Wars, Alien was never a gender politics statement or battleground. It was just a movie filled with several interesting characters, and in the end the most capable one happened to be Ripley, a woman. Ridley Scott didn't make Tom Skerritt and Yaphet Kotto into pathetic losers to show that Ripley was better. James Cameron didn't make Michael Biehn piss his pants when he saw the Alien. He was strong, so was Lance Henriksen, so was Sigourney Weaver, so was Jenette Goldstein.

If they want Rey to be a strong character, then write her as one. But tearing everyone else down around her just makes her the tallest person in a crowd of toddlers. It doesn't make her tall.

I agree that the Poe/Holdo thing was blatant propaganda, and that the messages in The Last Jedi may have been largely marketing-driven to take advantage of current social trends. I mean, what else is the point of a purple haired admiral? But I think demonstrating that Luke is inferior to the new female hero is part of the film's intended political message, and not simply a more benign weak writing of Rey.
 

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