STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[chickenluver]

When it counts most with its main protagonist the film is fundamentally unwilling to show her as significantly flawed, it sets up a premise where it could potentially do so but then pulls back from it with Rey rejecting Kylo utterly.

To this point I think it was Johnson mocking the audience for thinking such a thing could happen in these movies.

 

[moreorless87]

To this point I think it was Johnson mocking the audience for thinking such a thing could happen in these movies.

Honestly its all the more disappointing because I do think you have the basis for a very strong dramatic plot with Rey/Kylo that ends up not reaching the level it could have had those making the film given it more focus and had the balls to throw though on it instead of backing out and keeping Rey exactly the same as she was.

Again I'v seen the defence that well Luke rejects Vader in ESB so this is the same but I don't believe that at all. I mean for one thing Luke's rejection of Vader is not followed by the same extended heroism we see afterwards from Rey, it just barely escapes with his life. Beyond that though the ESB I think see's Luke fail in a very believable way, actually joining Vader wouldn't be on the cards for him because it goes against as more simplistic heroic adventurer worldview and its this worldview that fails when faced with the reality of losing to Vader and the reveal from him.

TLJ is I thinjk having to deal with a lack of motivation for Rey but it does reintroduce the idea that looking for her family and/or a sense of belonging is her prime motivator. She doesn't get this from Luke and the reveal from Kylo destroys the potential of getting it from her family yet it is offered from him only to be rejected out of hand and then seemingly forgotten rather quickly where as Luke's failure is clearly focused on for the rest of the film, we see him rejecting on it when hanging off the antenna and on the Falcon with Vader contacting him.

Honestly when it comes down to it I just think that this sequel films are light cinema(even by blockbuster standards), they might try and follow the lead of the OT in including some themes of depth they never really commit to them the way the originasl or Rogue One do. There just too concerned with sticking to a rather safe and simple formula of good vs evil with lots of action and humour which to be honest makes the idea that they've gone over the head of anyone making criticism laughable.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I can sincerely say that I had no problem with there not being that ONE "good guy" who leads the show. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin all made up a capable team and I never questioned it or asked why there wasn't only one person who was front and center. Didn't even think about it, honestly.

Same.
I'm not understanding the criticism on this.
It was clear who the good guys were and what they were trying to do/stop the bad guys from doing. I didn't need one guy to folow.

Also don't agree that Anakin was shoehorned into the story. We all went into these movies knowing that they were prequels, so it was obvious who Anakin was from the get-go.
He played a significant role in the movie.
But I do think it would have been better if he had been the central part of the movie. Having Palpatine be aware of his presence, and have the Jedi and Sith fight over the boy to see who ends up training him would have made for a better story, imo.

 

[Guestx]

Same.
I'm not understanding the criticism on this.
It was clear who the good guys were and what they were trying to do/stop the bad guys from doing. I didn't need one guy to folow.

It seems that some people are just locked on to ONE kind of story structure and they think that any deviation from that is a flaw.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Joe Rogan is a piece of shit!!! FUCK HIM!!!!! I thought he was better than this. He stuck a knife in my heart and broke it simultaneously.

FUCK JOE ROGAN!!!!!!

I'm on the negative side of this movie, but "everyone was black and asian"? lol there was ONE black dude, and ONE asian chick.
But i agree with his last point, stop trying to being inclusive and forfeiting quality. You can make a great character be female, but they have to be great first.

 

[BisexualMMA]

It seems that some people are just locked on to ONE kind of story structure and they think that any deviation from that is a flaw.

It's not so much that people demand a clear protagonist for every film. Tarantino films receive a fair bit of praise despite often lacking one.

It's more that it's usually a good idea to have one, and that people walked out of the Phantom Menace bored. They weren't sitting there asking themselves who the protagonist was the whole time. They just walked out not liking the annoying kid, not liking the monotone queen, and having been bored stiff by Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor. There wasn't a character that clearly drove the movie, and all four semi-options either spoke in an emotionless monotone or were a little kid that didn't know how to act.

 

[Guestx]

It's not so much that people demand a clear protagonist for every film. Tarantino films receive a fair bit of praise despite often lacking one.

It's more that it's usually a good idea to have one, and that people walked out of the Phantom Menace bored. They weren't sitting there asking themselves who the protagonist was the whole time. They just walked out not liking the annoying kid, not liking the monotone queen, and having been bored stiff by Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor. There wasn't a character that clearly drove the movie, and all four semi-options either spoke in an emotionless monotone or were a little kid that didn't know how to act.

Well that's the thing, a lot of people apparently take the "there was no protagonist" criticism seriously. Maybe you don't. But some seem to.

As for the rest of your comments, as I've said, I think it's the worst of the prequels. But I definitely don't think that Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan had anything to do with that. Those two were fine characters and added to the film rather than subtracting from it.

In my opinion, the main issues were 1) certain key plot elements needed to be more clear, 2) Jar Jar and the Gungans are shitty characters, and 3) Anakin turning into a competent fighter pilot despite never having piloted a ship is dumb.

Fix all of that and you've fixed the movie.

 

[minute bull]

But i agree with his last point, stop trying to being inclusive and forfeiting quality. You can make a great character be female, but they have to be great first.

He's joking but it illustrates a solid point that people miss.

Identifying gender is easy, but determining a great character is not. And I mean this from an audience standpoint. Because when you get down to it, how is any of them bad characters? I know we have a previous comparison for Luke, but there is none for the characters introduced here. From there it's a nebulous melange of opinion that speak little toward actual writing structure. Boring and pointless is what I hear, but I never hear what it is that equates greatness with any sort of concrete thought. But then that's when people are like "but it's their responsibility to keep me entertained," and we get into intractable morasses.

 

[chickenluver]

Well you have your opinion and I have mine, bro.

This is true. Some things work for one person and don't work for another.

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin all made up a capable team and I never questioned it or asked why there wasn't only one person who was front and center. Didn't even think about it, honestly.

It's not necessarily a problem for me either, the issue is I don't like any of the characters. Ironically, making Jake Lloyd's Anakin the focus of the film would have actually made it much worse.

 

[Guestx]

It's not necessarily a problem for me either, the issue is I don't like any of the characters. Ironically, making Jake Lloyd's Anakin the focus of the film would have actually made it much worse.

What issues do you have with Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan?

 

[BisexualMMA]

What issues do you have with Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan?

The Obi Wan of The Phantom Menace, ignoring the Obi Wan of the original trilogy, is not a remotely interesting or memorable character, save for the final battle with Darth Maul. That moment where he's waiting behind the forcefield while Darth Maul paces back and forth like Gonzaga after he nut kicked Tuchscherer is probably the best moment of all the prequels.

But otherwise, he's just an uninteresting guy that does nothing. Not Ewan's fault, there was just nothing to do except talk about quantities of things that were being ordered and symbiotic circles, etc.

Qui Gon... Well, he's the best character of the four potential protagonists, but that's kind of just by default for not sucking total balls. What was he really about to you?

 

[Guestx]

The Obi Wan of The Phantom Menace, ignoring the Obi Wan of the original trilogy, is not a remotely interesting or memorable character, save for the final battle with Darth Maul. That moment where he's waiting behind the forcefield while Darth Maul paces back and forth like Gonzaga after he nut kicked Tuchscherer is probably the best moment of all the prequels.

But otherwise, he's just an uninteresting guy that does nothing. Not Ewan's fault, there was just nothing to do except talk about quantities of things that were being ordered and symbiotic circles, etc.

Qui Gon... Well, he's the best character of the four potential protagonists, but that's kind of just by default for not sucking total balls. What was he really about to you?

I feel like a lot of the Star Wars saga is about characters being planted but not coming to fruition until later in the story.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are both planted in episode 1, but that really is Qui-Gon's movie. Qui-Gon dies and makes way for Obi-Wan and Anakin to come to fruition in episode 2. In episode 3 we see Anakin transition from hero to villain, and we also see Luke's birth, and these two things together make way for Luke to step into the spotlight in episode 4.

Now in the new films we're seeing Han, Luke and Leia make way for Rey, Poe and the rest of the new crew.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I feel like a lot of the Star Wars saga is about characters being planted but not coming to fruition until later in the story.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are both planted in episode 1, but that really is Qui-Gon's movie. Qui-Gon dies and makes way for Obi-Wan and Anakin to come to fruition in episode 2. In episode 3 we see Anakin transition from hero to villain, and we also see Luke's birth, and these two things together make way for Luke to step into the spotlight in episode 4.

Now in the new films we're seeing Han, Luke and Leia make way for Rey, Poe and the rest of the new crew.

That was what Qui Gon was about? Existing so he can die and make room for Anakin and Obi Wan in the next movie?

That could be why people generally aren't drawn to him as a character.

A character should exist and be driven by things greater than being a plot placeholder.

 

[Guestx]

That was what Qui Gon was about? Existing so he can die and make room for Anakin and Obi Wan in the next movie?

That could be why people generally aren't drawn to him as a character.

A character should exist and be driven by things greater than being a plot placeholder.

No, I was explaining why Obi-Wan had not yet come into his own in episode 1. It's because he is there to act as support for Qui-Gon. Then when Qui-Gon dies it opens the path for Obi-Wan to come to fruition.

As for "what Qui-Gon is about," I'm not sure what you mean. His purpose in the story is to identify Anakin, to believe in him, and to set him on the path to becoming a Jedi.

If you're asking for character traits, well, he's stoic yet headstrong. He believes in the mission of the Jedi and is completely dedicated to the cause, but he also has an independent streak and will ultimately do what he believes is right even when the Jedi council has other ideas. Also, he's like a father to those he apprentices and is fully invested in their development.

 

[chickenluver]

What issues do you have with Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan?

But otherwise, he's just an uninteresting guy that does nothing. Not Ewan's fault, there was just nothing to do except talk about quantities of things that were being ordered and symbiotic circles, etc.

Yeah Obi-Wan doesn't get to do much, and they both seem rather bored, possibly due to the poor script and lazy direction. They really could have been combined into one character. Or rather Qui-Gon didn't need to be in the movie. Let Obi-Wan discover Anakin and want to to train him. As it is he only trains him because of the promise to Qui-Gon. Even though it's against the wishes of the entire council, and ultimately a horrible mistake. So really it was Qui-Gon that doomed the galaxy to decades of imperial tyranny.

In my opinion, the main issues were 1) certain key plot elements needed to be more clear, 2) Jar Jar and the Gungans are shitty characters, and 3) Anakin turning into a competent fighter pilot despite never having piloted a ship is dumb.

1) I think it's more like the whole plot needed to be rewritten.
2) No arguments here
3) Again we are in agreement. I think Anakin should have been closer to Luke's age, and have had some pilot experience. Then he could learn a few things from Obi-Wan and actually do something practical. Even making him godlike like Rey is in Disney's canon would be fine. Well maybe not quite that godlike. I saw someone floating the idea of Anakin killing Darth Maul, perhaps after Maul injures Obi-Wan or kills a bunch of red shirts.

 

[BisexualMMA]

No, I was explaining why Obi-Wan had not yet come into his own in episode 1. It's because he is there to act as support for Qui-Gon. Then when Qui-Gon dies it opens the path for Obi-Wan to come to fruition.

As for "what Qui-Gon is about," I'm not sure what you mean. His purpose in the story is to identify Anakin, to believe in him, and to set him on the path to becoming a Jedi.

If you're asking for character traits, well, he's stoic yet headstrong. He believes in the mission of the Jedi and is completely dedicated to the cause, but he also has an independent streak and will ultimately do what he believes is right even when the Jedi council has other ideas. Also, he's like a father to those he apprentices and is fully invested in their development.

Okay, but to me he's just a throwaway character like Dooku or Grievous.

He's there to identify Anakin and believe in him? Okay, but I never really cared who recruited Anakin to be a Jedi, especially if he was out of the picture before Anakin was 10 and Anakin never even got to know him at all. What does Anakin actually remember about Qui Gon when he is an adult? His beard and long hair?

All the stuff that Qui Gon either does in the plot or which reveals character traits is pretty much disposable. Negotiates for spaceship parts and arranges a convoluted pod racing bet? Shrug. Get his ass kicked by Darth Maul and dies without Anakin around to see it? Shrug. What else does he do...co-negotiate with the Gungan King with Obi Wan? Okay, nothing Obi Wan couldn't have done himself, plus the Gungan stuff was all crap anyway. The guy wins Anakin in a pod race and doesn't even care about Anakin's mother being left in slavery? Okay.

At the start, he and Obi Wan arrive to negotiate with those fake Asian aliens about an interplanetary trade blockade. As Plinkett points out, why are Jedi Knights serving as international trade lawyers?

"Hey Obi Wan Kenobi, go interpret NAFTA Chapter 52 for the Mexicans."
"Ummm, my expertise is in swordfighting and magic."
"Just take the treaty with you and read it on the spaceship."
"Ummm, okay."

Two days later...

President of Mexico: "Why are our copyrights being infringed upon by the Canadian entertainment industry, while our patents are protected in manufacturing but not telecommunications?"
Obi Wan Kenobi: "You and the Canadians form a symbiant circle, you must understand this."

 

[SmilinDesperado]

He's joking but it illustrates a solid point that people miss.

Identifying gender is easy, but determining a great character is not. And I mean this from an audience standpoint. Because when you get down to it, how is any of them bad characters? I know we have a previous comparison for Luke, but there is none for the characters introduced here. From there it's a nebulous melange of opinion that speak little toward actual writing structure. Boring and pointless is what I hear, but I never hear what it is that equates greatness with any sort of concrete thought. But then that's when people are like "but it's their responsibility to keep me entertained," and we get into intractable morasses.

What is difficult about determining a great character?
The characters didn't even have to be great, i would have settled for 'good', or 'interesting '
It's not they're 'bad' characters, they're just nothing. One dimensional, and uninteresting.

Who is this Admiral Holdo? Why is she considered a bad ass?
Who is Rey? Why is she so powerful?
Who is Rose? Finn? Luke? Ren? Snoke? What is driving these people? Is this all just about staying alive?
These characters are so god damn shallow. The movie does nothing to tell us about any of these people or their motivations.

Han was a great character, Leia was, Vader was, young Luke. They had purpose and personality, a drive and goal. It really isn't that difficult

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

As you fair-weather fans strive for rebuttal, or simply just walk away, here's some easier food for your thought:

And no. No laser swords are in play.

Is that Adam Sandler and are you really bringing up Adam Sandler as a positive example?

 

[SmilinDesperado]

The fundamental problem for me with TLJ is in its execution, all this hypothetical talk about people regressing morally with age and cynicism is fine enough but ultimately what matters is what we see onscreen. Luke being tempted to kill Ben is really not something that gets very much setup at all, we don't see for example Luke having become a more cynical pragmatist by that point, just some vague talk by Hamil of hubris after the fact. A lot of the issue there I would say is that TLJ feels like a very unfocused and cluttered film(TFA did as well), it spends a lot of time needlessly turning its wheels to very little effect in the resistance plot whilst undercooking Luke's character, not to mention its propensity to include constant humour/action again at the cost of more serious focus.



Equally the same is true from the film pulling back from Rey either joining or being tempted to join Kylo and that really makes any claim that this film shows more depth than the originals highly questionable. When it counts most with its main protagonist the film is fundamentally unwilling to show her as significantly flawed, it sets up a premise where it could potentially do so but then pulls back from it with Rey rejecting Kylo utterly. That's not the same as Luke rejecting Vader in ESB because its actually Luke's failiure with confronting Vader and the reveal that he's his father that counts. Imagine ESB where Luke brushes off Vaders reveal, fights him to an inconclusive draw and then escapes and helps Leia rescue Han.

This is a big problem for me, and it's hard for me to understand how some here defend this.
I keep hearing these arguments about "what COULD have happened " to Luke to explain how he is now. That is silly. These things need to happen ONSCREEN. How am I supposed to understand or care about the feelings, or motivations of characters when I don't see their journey or experiences.
What was so scary about Ren? Was he really that evil that his own uncle was willing to kill him? Why does Ren have this allegiance to Snoke over his own parents? We are 2 movies in to a trilogy, and I don't understand why Ren has such an extreme hate towards the world. The son of Leia and Han
There's a lot of things in this movie that the audience is just expected to go along with without questions.

On your second point though, I'm confused why everyone thinking that Rey joining Ren would have made sense? Like, I'm down for the movies to explore a "grey" area of the Force, but why would Rey join Ren, knowing what she knows of him, and being who she is, that would have made no sense.

 

[liljoe]

I'm on the negative side of this movie, but "everyone was black and asian"? lol there was ONE black dude, and ONE asian chick.
But i agree with his last point, stop trying to being inclusive and forfeiting quality. You can make a great character be female, but they have to be great first.

Yeah. It has to be woven in correctly in to the story, not just shoved in.

I think back to the original Terminator 34 years ago. Lead character a women. Who starts off weak and scared and ends up a true badass.
The lead detective, a black guy. And all of it perfectly integrated correctly into the story.