STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[chickenluver]

If I'm writing a trilogy of movies, and thinking about my story that way, then I don't think it's illegitimate to plant a character in the first part of the story whose relevance won't become obvious until the second part.

When that character is theoretically the focus of the entire trilogy, then yes, it is illegitimate.

And his relevance is obvious from the start because we already know who he is. It's not like people showed up to Ep 2 and were surprised the annoying kid from the previous film was now the focus. He's the key point of Ep 1 (the only point really) and he's shoehorned in.

 

[Guestx]

When that character is theoretically the focus of the entire trilogy, then yes, it is illegitimate.

And his relevance is obvious from the start because we already know who he is. It's not like people showed up to Ep 2 and were surprised the annoying kid from the previous film was now the focus. He's the key point of Ep 1 (the only point really) and he's shoehorned in.

Well you have your opinion and I have mine, bro.

 

[chickenluver]

Forgive me but I'm going to entertain you with all the memes I created about the new Star Wars movie.

I love this one.

 

[liljoe]

Joe Rogan is a piece of shit!!! FUCK HIM!!!!! I thought he was better than this. He stuck a knife in my heart and broke it simultaneously.

FUCK JOE ROGAN!!!!!!

 

[HomerThompson]

Besides the bad scripting/acting I think you see the fundamental problem with those films right from the start, what do we get in the opening? not the introduction of Anakin(preferable as a teen or young adult) as a protagonist but a load of setup for the coming politics.

 

[moreorless87]

I love this one.

Honestly though coming from Kylo I have no problem with that statement, I think its a realistic reaction to his situation from a villain with some subtley which makes it all the more annoying that he shifts from that to screaming petulant evil by the end of the film.

Rey joining Kylo or at least being seriously tempted to do so but separated by events would have made for a far better films and far better setup for the next film.

That's why the whole idea of a "film about failure" to me ultimately doesn't come off, it doesn't allow its main protagonist to fail.

 

[Strange King]

What's even dumber is that it all could have been avoided if they would have just TOLD Poe the plan.

haha yep

 

[chickenluver]

I'm not sure if it's possible for me to properly rate this movie.

The sound and visuals are very strong. The story, pacing, dialogue, and humor are really bad, the humor especially so. I feel like when that Please hold for General Hux scene happened my brain turned off and my expectations became instantly lowered, and as a result I was able to be sort of entertained by the visual spectacle.

The more I think about the movie the less I like it. It has an inexplicable contempt for the source material. It kind of reminds me of when Alan Moore did deconstructions of obscure comic book characters in the 1980's, such as Swamp Thing and Miracleman, and it became a trend. Except it's more like if Moore picked the most beloved characters, which he hated, deconstructed them in the most vulgar way possible, built no new lore, before passing it along to another writer.

A deconstruction should be a foundation, not the primary goal.

The whole way this new series has played out is baffling to me. Abrams crafted a rather hollow updated version of the old story, Johnson tears everything down, Abrams comes back to salvage the hack job.

I feel rather foolish for thinking the Disney takeover would result in good movies.

I won't be seeing any more Star Wars movies in theaters. This movie was the equivalent of sowing salt.

Star Wars - 8
The Empire Strikes Back - 9
Return of the Jedi - 7
The Phantom Menace - 2
Attack of the Clones - 1
Revenge of the Sith - 3
The Force Awakens - 5
Rouge One - 6
The Last Jedi - N/A

 

[Strange King]

So, you have a problem with my using uncool, but no problem with I want it awesome and fun. Okay. Understood.


How is it proficient? And mind you I'm not speaking like some Valley girl, in a constant barrage of rhetorical questions.

The point is yes she's damn OP in TFA, but she isn't in TLJ. She doesn't do anything demonstrably more powerful in the second film, other than all the rocks. And I've been over the concept of Force + hubris, which also means its flipside Force + clarity. Given Rey's expression of OP isn't defeating the enemy but saving lives, it serves as the final concluding image of the theme of the film, which as blatantly stated by Rose.

As for why Luke didn't defend himself, he did. But as soon as he did, she relented, so no more need for defense. It was a quick fight. If you want forty minutes of myearrrrnggghhh fight, please see ROTS. Yes, Luke is wrong about wanting the Jedi to end! He's got the wrong idea through most of the film. Typical Skywalker. Always something, Yoda something. Hee hee hee.

Remember this?

They can't skip the island, because TFA puts them on the island!

hahah youre obsession with being beat down from everyone in this forum is hilarious.

Nothing you point out makes these writing mistakes make anymore sense.

Youre like a handicapped child fighting his retardation describing why 2+2=3.

There is no right answer for bad writing and this film is filled with it

 

[chickenluver]

Honestly though coming from Kylo I have no problem with that statement, I think its a realistic reaction to his situation from a villain with some subtley which makes it all the more annoying that he shifts from that to screaming petulant evil by the end of the film.

Rey joining Kylo or at least being seriously tempted to do so but separated by events would have made for a far better films and far better setup for the next film.

That's why the whole idea of a "film about failure" to me ultimately doesn't come off, it doesn't allow its main protagonist to fail.

I agree. I find that meme amusing mostly as the summation of the movie as a whole.

 

[Strange King]

Joe Rogan is a piece of shit!!! FUCK HIM!!!!! I thought he was better than this. He stuck a knife in my heart and broke it simultaneously.

FUCK JOE ROGAN!!!!!!

I said this right after the movie came out and secret douche was very pissed off at me. The movie is a feminist film. All women are powerful and men are dumb idiots

 

[Magooglie]

Yeah, and its a bit of let down. Although it is only two movies that are so intrinsically linked. Rogue One exists outside of the current trilogy and occupies it's place in the story well enough. I think both sides of of the TLJ debate are using the same point, that time is going to tell on this movie. I think theres some truth to that, but much of it depends on the 3rd movie. Once the story is settled it'll be easier to see the place of TLJ in the narrative. Currently my position kind of centers around that theres much less to look forward to going into the 3rd movie as there was going into the second. Maybe Im wrong. Theres not much to anticipate, really.

I think the Poe storyline is trash no matter what happens because it's isolated to TLJ. There were many routes they could have taken to the resistance being beat down and outnumbered and they chose an absolutely moronic one.

 

[chickenluver]

I used Frank as an avatar for about a year. Imagine HIS voice if it helps.

That stresses me out

 

[Loiosh]

That stresses me out

Yeah, he was pretty intense.

 

[minute bull]

Youre like a handicapped child fighting his retardation describing why 2+2=3.

Hey bud. How are you tonight? Staying warm, I hope?

 

[D Train]

I guess I’m frustrated that literally everything Luke fought for was ultimately empty.
The Empire was replaced by the First Order. Palpatine was replaced by Snoke. Vader was replaced by Ren. He didn’t balance the Force. He didn’t rebuild the Jedi.
It just seems pointless.

 

[Bob Gray]

Josepph Gordon Levitt wrote an essay about how people are taking the character of Skywalker in TLJ. Its a pretty even handed take and its interesting to hear the viewpoint of an actor. He even brings up the point I've mentioned several times about Luke reacting with lethal intentions toward Kylo while doing everything he could to save Vader.



The thing is, I agree with pretty much everything he says in the essay. But it again brings up the divide between the two camps. Is an older, beaten, cynical Luke a much more difficult and dangerous depiction to pull off? As opposed to the "safe" version of him being a heroic master jedi teaching the new generation? Absolutely fuck yes it is. But thats the problem. It's difficult to do, and for many people it was too difficult for Johnson.

Almost universally it feels like the bullet point of peoples disagreement with the criticism is that this is new, or different or unexpected or more interesting, etc. By and large I see no problem with that. But it just grows tiresome to hear people shoehorn your criticism into something they can just wave away with "Youre biased" or "You dont get it" or "It wasnt what you wanted". What I wanted was a movie that drew me in and enveloped me in its story, characters and the world we've come to know. If you want to go in a massively different direction, I applaud the audacity but I dont give it a pass for it.

Also, Luke milked a fucking alien and Canto Blight sucked. Nobody ever addresses this.

 

[Bob Gray]

I guess I’m frustrated that literally everything Luke fought for was ultimately empty.
The Empire was replaced by the First Order. Palpatine was replaced by Snoke. Vader was replaced by Ren. He didn’t balance the Force. He didn’t rebuild the Jedi.
It just seems pointless.

Yeah, thats one of the difficult things for me, too. Only exacerbated by the fact that I feel like they had to de-canonize his EU accomplishments because now Rey has to become the most powerful jedi of all time.

 

[liljoe]

Josepph Gordon Levitt wrote an essay about how people are taking the character of Skywalker in TLJ. Its a pretty even handed take and its interesting to hear the viewpoint of an actor. He even brings up the point I've mentioned several times about Luke reacting with lethal intentions toward Kylo while doing everything he could to save Vader.



The thing is, I agree with pretty much everything he says in the essay. But it again brings up the divide between the two camps. Is an older, beaten, cynical Luke a much more difficult and dangerous depiction to pull off? As opposed to the "safe" version of him being a heroic master jedi teaching the new generation? Absolutely fuck yes it is. But thats the problem. It's difficult to do, and for many people it was too difficult for Johnson.

Almost universally it feels like the bullet point of peoples disagreement with the criticism is that this is new, or different or unexpected or more interesting, etc. By and large I see no problem with that. But it just grows tiresome to hear people shoehorn your criticism into something they can just wave away with "Youre biased" or "You dont get it" or "It wasnt what you wanted". What I wanted was a movie that drew me in and enveloped me in its story, characters and the world we've come to know. If you want to go in a massively different direction, I applaud the audacity but I dont give it a pass for it.

Also, Luke milked a fucking alien and Canto Blight sucked. Nobody ever addresses this.

What's wrong with alien milk?

 

[moreorless87]

Josepph Gordon Levitt wrote an essay about how people are taking the character of Skywalker in TLJ. Its a pretty even handed take and its interesting to hear the viewpoint of an actor. He even brings up the point I've mentioned several times about Luke reacting with lethal intentions toward Kylo while doing everything he could to save Vader.



The thing is, I agree with pretty much everything he says in the essay. But it again brings up the divide between the two camps. Is an older, beaten, cynical Luke a much more difficult and dangerous depiction to pull off? As opposed to the "safe" version of him being a heroic master jedi teaching the new generation? Absolutely fuck yes it is. But thats the problem. It's difficult to do, and for many people it was too difficult for Johnson.

Almost universally it feels like the bullet point of peoples disagreement with the criticism is that this is new, or different or unexpected or more interesting, etc. By and large I see no problem with that. But it just grows tiresome to hear people shoehorn your criticism into something they can just wave away with "Youre biased" or "You dont get it" or "It wasnt what you wanted". What I wanted was a movie that drew me in and enveloped me in its story, characters and the world we've come to know. If you want to go in a massively different direction, I applaud the audacity but I dont give it a pass for it.

Also, Luke milked a fucking alien and Canto Blight sucked. Nobody ever addresses this.

His argument though I think reflects a clear weakness in the film, painting Luke from the OT as "a little light" with the new film having him as "an imperfect human being". Even as far back as ANH Luke needs more than a little convincing to take up the heroic role but when you move onto ESB the idea that Starwars played Luke as merely a bland hero doesnt stack up. This film to me is a brilliant deconstruction of the character in the truest sense, that is it doesn't work via merely introducing flaws to him but rather playing out who he is and showing the negative consequences of that in a more morally complex world.

The fundamental problem for me with TLJ is in its execution, all this hypothetical talk about people regressing morally with age and cynicism is fine enough but ultimately what matters is what we see onscreen. Luke being tempted to kill Ben is really not something that gets very much setup at all, we don't see for example Luke having become a more cynical pragmatist by that point, just some vague talk by Hamil of hubris after the fact. A lot of the issue there I would say is that TLJ feels like a very unfocused and cluttered film(TFA did as well), it spends a lot of time needlessly turning its wheels to very little effect in the resistance plot whilst undercooking Luke's character, not to mention its propensity to include constant humour/action again at the cost of more serious focus.

In terms of trusting Disney I'm on the fence personally, I felt they did take an ambitious step with Rogue One making a film that avoided a lot of modern blackbuster conventions to treat its setting well. With TFA and TLJ though I see a hell of a lot of pandering to those conventions(which badly damaging the credibility of the setting and characters) and merchandise marketing plus perhaps most importantly an unwillingness to really commit to anything too risky. Again I suspect that part of the reason Luke ends up as purely defeatist on his island is that Disney did not like the alternative. That would be Luke actually altering the Jedi/Sith status quo with some kind of new wisdom about the force, Luke doing that AND still having a cynical edge to him about returning due to his failiure with Ben would I think be drama on the same kind of level as ESB.

Equally the same is true from the film pulling back from Rey either joining or being tempted to join Kylo and that really makes any claim that this film shows more depth than the originals highly questionable. When it counts most with its main protagonist the film is fundamentally unwilling to show her as significantly flawed, it sets up a premise where it could potentially do so but then pulls back from it with Rey rejecting Kylo utterly. That's not the same as Luke rejecting Vader in ESB because its actually Luke's failiure with confronting Vader and the reveal that he's his father that counts. Imagine ESB where Luke brushes off Vaders reveal, fights him to an inconclusive draw and then escapes and helps Leia rescue Han.