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Discussion in 'Mayberry Lounge' started by Dragonlordxxxxx, Dec 14, 2017.
Super late to this party. I like the ideas people float about on how the movie could've been better so here's mine. I feel the movie was trying to say something different but I don't know why they would even go this route at all since Star Wars is about wars, the Force, and personal choice. TLJ did stuff that made it all sound silly and that's business-suicide when you have such a lucrative franchise with a very understandable expectation from fans.
But I see where they might've been going and here's my thoughts on how it could've been made better.
Note: I am not a fan at all of Star Wars and don't hold any nostalgic feelings or even respect for the lore.
In the Star Wars plot holes thread I mentioned how I don't understand why the Force is held in such reverence. It's a power for good and evil equally and, if anything, is a competing conflict of Order and Chaos. So there's a theme of The Last Jedi where finally the characters question the Force and whether its usage is a good thing or bad. The movie does turn the franchise on its head but there's still one foot in the door in respect to the previous movies that TLJ is afraid of challenging and leaves status quo. It ends up in this awkward position where the arguments are wishy-washy and not given substance. See Captain America: Civil War where a questioning of super-hero adventurism is done well and entertainingly. And so the movie doesn't really say anything and relies on surprises and twists that prey on viewers expecting Empire Strikes Back.
So since one of the original inspirations of Star Wars were chambara films and the Jedi partially influenced by Bushido, I would've said let's just rip off one major theme from Seven Samurai to reinforce the message that I think TLJ was trying to get at. In that film, the samurai are giants but are also the single biggest problem for regular folks and society. Their internal conflicts cause strife and grief on farmers; people trying to make a decent living and just getting on with their lives. But even in this constant abuse, the regular folk persevere to win and the samurai are destined for inevitable irrelevance and doomed to be forgotten. People band together around their work (farming) and a more collective society forms with greater equality.
To reinforce this theme in TLJ wouldn't need a lot of changes to the scenes or the beats; just a tonal shift.
- Luke should have the same grievances with the Force but he shouldn't be in hiding. Let him be more like Kambei: a lone, poor, old, and honor-less samurai (because he cut his hair) yet still uses his skills and Bushido to save the poor and defenseless. Luke is on the rock because he's masterless; his role in the continued "Star Wars" is due to The Force and he believes that regular people have the power to conquer the Sith on their own and he sees his way as done. Ultimately, the Force always gets balanced anyway through major shit-storms (through Anakin, then Luke himself). But he should still be Jedi-like and save little kids and whatnot.
- Rey, as being this super-user of the force, should have some kind of lineage. Doesn't matter which one, just make it one where she belongs to a harmful yet doomed to be irrelevant class which will force her to make a choice. TLJ already has a bit of this notion but goes the opposite way; she's a nobody after all. But I much rather that she really is a somebody: Snoke's kid, Luke's kid, miraculous Force child, etc. because she'd be more interesting to have a theme of choice if she was destined, or doomed, to be a Jedi or a Sith, and whether she even has a choice to decide anything at all. For her the question is not Light Side / Dark Side but rather stepping out of all of that nonsense (Kylo's choice). But as it stands, that choice is less dramatic since there's nothing to tie her to any kind of legacy and so nothing holds her back from making any kind of decision. Kylo is a better character because he does have that lineage.
- How Kylo is set up though, this theme gets lost. Since he's pretty much Vader 2.0 and all the "Grandfather" stuff, he's neck-deep in legacy and his rebellion against Snoke makes sense in a Sith-murder kind of way, or a "is he still able to come back to the Light side" kind of way, not in the way where he rejects any "old" ways. But we need a bad-guy and I don't mind his treatment because he's treacherous and capable but not limited to the same rules that Vader and the Emperor had (namely not having to have a one-on-one lightsaber duel with the main protagonist).
- What would've been really cool is Snoke was really a force ghost all along that whispers in Kylo's ear to make him go crazy. If Yoda, Qui-Gon, Obi-wan, Anakin are all force ghosts, why not some ancient Sith?
- Finn, Poe, and the rest are all filler but are necessary because they are the regular people. They represent what is supposed to be protected. It ain't Jedi. It's Alderaan and their likes from getting blown up by a massive planet-destroying laser. Their failures are actually good because if anybody needs to look like they're in the dark and vulnerable, it's them. But making Leia a force user is ridiculous and betrays the spirit of regular folks, species from all corners, banding together in a rebel alliance. If their leadership is a Jedi or Force user, it doesn't serve the story at all.
- Luke needed to go out fighting with a light-saber. We need to see that he chose to go out as a Jedi because this movie, after all, is called the Last fucking Jedi and that ultimately his choice was to serve the Light side. If the old ways are done, then let it be done through him. He could've even died for very little or even nothing. But he needed to go out by testing the perfection of his skills and for his own personal code and without fear; like a samurai. The force projection is nothing but writers needing a plot device to get past a stuck and make shit up as they go.
Aside from that, I really wouldn't change all that much.
I liked some of your ideas, but those weren't small changes.
What you propose to do with Luke alone would completely change the movie. Changing the tone would change the movie. This movie was about as deep as a kiddie pool, filled with stupid, juvenile humor, and nonsensical storylines, changing it into a thought provoking film with some purpose, a film that actually answers and explores the questions it raises would take work.
Changing Luke's importance and role in the movie, his thoughts on the Force and how it, and the Jedi relate to normal people would be a huge theme that would make it a different movie. It wouldn't be about Rey and Ren at that point, it would be about the Force, jedi, and it what it means to the SW world.
I like this. And i believe it is what the movie should have been about.
It is called Star Wars. Star Wars movies are about Jedi, the Force, and battles..if Rian didn't want to make a movie about the Force then he shouldn't of been writing and directing a fucking Star Wars movie. As you said, the movie is called The Last Jedi, ffs. The movie preceding it is called The FORCE Awakens.
What are you talking about? Star Wars has always been about veganism, the military industrial complex and running away from battle.
How was TLJ about veganism? Motherfucker kills a giant fish and drinks alien titty milk.
And how certain are you that those were titties.
Don't worry, the veganism thing was the least of this movie's issues.
That was supposed to be more comedic and cute more than any big pro-vegan stand.
It was a bit of both. I really didn't mind the scene too much though, but I did expect the Porgs to at least play some tiny role in the plot going forward. Instead, they were literally a toy ad.
You think the movie that took a half hour detour to preach about animal cruelty wasn't considering veganism at all? The movie was packed to the gills with propaganda, though the veganism was perhaps the most subtle of the messages.
So we can blame JJ yet again.
That scene made no sense, if you knew about the dice growing up i'm calling bullshit.
Its the non titty milk you need to worry about.
... Struggling in China?
But... but... they very obviously cast Asians in a specifically calculated manner to carry that demographic!
How could it have failed?
That sure subverts my expectations!
Rogue One had Donnie fucking Yen but still didn't do well. China just doesn't like Star Wars.
But, but... diversity!
A film is shit unless it appeals to everyone imaginable.
A lot of the hype surrounding Star Wars franchise is mainly those teens who saw it back in the 70's. Who then became parents then brought their kids to prequels. And those kids are doing same with their kids with these trilogies. It doesn't do well in China, because they didn't grow up with it. Most of the audiences are going to the movies are watching Transformers and WoW because that's what they grew up on instead. I doubt in the 70's and 80's many Chinese saw the originals due to strict regulations. And in the 2000's it was probably the same. Those who saw Rogue One because of Donnie Yen were confused on the story line and put off during none Donnie Yen scenes. And then, they killed him off so his character can't be developed further for the Chinese audience....
If Disney was smart, they should totally capitalized on the Star Wars franchise in China by introducing a few new movies and characters to build from then slowly do a cross over with ours. Imagine something like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon with light sabers or fight scenes like IP Man or The Raid using force? And when they cross over, there wouldn't be a need for Asian actors/actress to speak in English. Just use subtitles.
That would be the mind-blowing.
You claim to not be a Star Wars fan but then launch into an essay of things the film needed to do.
I'm seeing a lot of unrealistic expectations ITT. As if the series has ever been anything more than some cool space shit.
I just rewatched this today. It still kinda blows but was better than the first time I saw it. Luke is still the biggest problem in this movie along with not having a proper villan. You cant have kylo ren be a darth vader type without doing bad ass darth vader stuff. Also the fact they made him destroy his mask kills the mystique. The thing im wondering is how do they right this wrong now? whats #9 gonna be about? Im really hoping for a proper turn for kylo or another sith lord to come and take over. I doubt it though.
Dont forget feminism at its finest. every male in this film is incompetent and needs to be rescued and educated by a woman
Im a fan and i hate this film