STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

If you have seen STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI, how would you rate it?


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Yeah, i would have been more OK with the astral projection if it didn't kill Luke.
Ive never heard of Force exhaustion.
Snoke was able to Force drag and choke Hux from another SHIP not close by, and connect the minds of Rey and Ren with no problem, but Master Jedi Luke dies from just projecting his image?

Force GHOST Yoda dropped in and made a lightning bolt
 
Honestly I went back and watched the originals over the weekend and it really does stand out just how much more seriously those films take their setting/characters than everything that's come since bar Rogue One, even the prequels are overly cartoonish far too often and these sequels seem like there terrified of being seen to take things too seriously.



I mean whether its true or not that does give the impression of arrogance to me, in this film especially Rian Johnson seems to think he can kid us into believing Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi don't exist in terms of deconstructing Luke's heroism whilst nicking a load of stuff from them and putting an inferior spin on it.

Again to me a lot of the defences of this film read like the defences of the Matrix sequels, remember all of the people who sounded like they'd never watched anything more complex than Independence Day trying to inform us of those films genius? "Neo and Smith are OPPOSITES! like positive and negative man!"
 
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Honestly I went back and watched the originals over the weekend and it really does stand out just how much more seriously those films take their setting/characters than everything that's come since bar Rogue One, even the prequels are overly cartoonish far too often and these sequels seem like there terrified of being seen to take things too seriously.



I mean whether its true or not that does give the impression of arrogance to me, in this film especially Rian Johnson seems to think he can kid us into believing Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi don't exist in terms of deconstructing Luke's heroism whilst nicking a load of stuff from them and putting an inferior spin on it.

Again to me a lot of the defences of this film read like the defences of the Matrix sequels, remember all of the people who sounded like they'd never watched anything more complex than Independence Day trying to inform us of those films genius? "Neo and Smith are OPPOSITES! like positive and negative man!"


I agree about the humour. People like to argue that the originals had humour in them but they also knew when to keep things 100% serious. You didn't have Luke making funny faces during the battle with Vader at the end of Empire and RotJ. And most of the humor felt like it fit within the movie whereas a lot of the humour in TFA and TLJ feels like scripts said <insert joke here> so they could keep up a certain rate of jokes.
 
Throughout both movies, I kinda felt like Boyega was doing a really bad Will Smith impersonation
 
Serious question, i think the both of you said you disliked TFA, did you guys just act like the movie didn't exist when you watched TLJ?
Thanks for asking.


My fondness grew for TFA after several sincere efforts. Ironically, the faults I initially found with TFA play a large component in why I like TLJ sofa king much.

Namely two things. Number one there was no explanation for what was happening onscreen, and number two its narrative didn't fall into a cause-and-effect structure the way I would have liked -- thus, overall I got the sense that TFA's events occur arbitrarily. Notably, Poe vanishing after crash-landing on Jakku with Finn only to re-appear later with little dramatic purpose, other than to remind us of the Rebellion and that he flies a cool plane.

The missing motivations for characters and even events were deftly explained to me in TLJ, so while I found these elements consternating in TFA for their lack of narrative logic, TLJ filled in the missing spaces better than I could have expected. Further, their actions were commensurate with both their characters and their current positions within the narrative, which is to say: the characters are written well and they do things that make sense at THAT point in the sequence. I always knew where we were headed in TLJ, and its genius was expertly setting me up to know this and further to surprise me with a gentle swerve* when we reached destination (*referred to as The Gap). This process is what inherently creates a vivid story: priming expectation and executing a reasonable surprise to that expectation . TFA built no expectations, thus we gleaned no real direction -- so we had to remember, oh yeah, everything that's happening is supposed to get us to Luke. But because Luke is minimally used in TFA, his pay-offs are all hair-thin.

In TLJ the payoffs are big time, but more importantly they are adroitly primed to do so.
 
I really hope you guys that dont like this movie arent paying for a 2nd viewing. Talk about counterproductive.
 
Thanks for asking.


My fondness grew for TFA after several sincere efforts. Ironically, the faults I initially found with TFA play a large component in why I like TLJ sofa king much.

Namely two things. Number one there was no explanation for what was happening onscreen, and number two its narrative didn't fall into a cause-and-effect structure the way I would have liked -- thus, overall I got the sense that TFA's events occur arbitrarily. Notably, Poe vanishing after crash-landing on Jakku with Finn only to re-appear later with little dramatic purpose, other than to remind us of the Rebellion and that he flies a cool plane.

The missing motivations for characters and even events were deftly explained to me in TLJ, so while I found these elements consternating in TFA for their lack of narrative logic, TLJ filled in the missing spaces better than I could have expected. Further, their actions were commensurate with both their characters and their current positions within the narrative, which is to say: the characters are written well and they do things that make sense at THAT point in the sequence. I always knew where we were headed in TLJ, and its genius was expertly setting me up to know this and further to surprise me with a gentle swerve* when we reached destination (*referred to as The Gap). This process is what inherently creates a vivid story: priming expectation and executing a reasonable surprise to that expectation . TFA built no expectations, thus we gleaned no real direction -- so we had to remember, oh yeah, everything that's happening is supposed to get us to Luke. But because Luke is minimally used in TFA, his pay-offs are all hair-thin.

In TLJ the payoffs are big time, but more importantly they are adroitly primed to do so.
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Thanks for asking.


My fondness grew for TFA after several sincere efforts. Ironically, the faults I initially found with TFA play a large component in why I like TLJ sofa king much.

Namely two things. Number one there was no explanation for what was happening onscreen, and number two its narrative didn't fall into a cause-and-effect structure the way I would have liked -- thus, overall I got the sense that TFA's events occur arbitrarily. Notably, Poe vanishing after crash-landing on Jakku with Finn only to re-appear later with little dramatic purpose, other than to remind us of the Rebellion and that he flies a cool plane.

The missing motivations for characters and even events were deftly explained to me in TLJ, so while I found these elements consternating in TFA for their lack of narrative logic, TLJ filled in the missing spaces better than I could have expected. Further, their actions were commensurate with both their characters and their current positions within the narrative, which is to say: the characters are written well and they do things that make sense at THAT point in the sequence. I always knew where we were headed in TLJ, and its genius was expertly setting me up to know this and further to surprise me with a gentle swerve* when we reached destination (*referred to as The Gap). This process is what inherently creates a vivid story: priming expectation and executing a reasonable surprise to that expectation . TFA built no expectations, thus we gleaned no real direction -- so we had to remember, oh yeah, everything that's happening is supposed to get us to Luke. But because Luke is minimally used in TFA, his pay-offs are all hair-thin.

In TLJ the payoffs are big time, but more importantly they are adroitly primed to do so.
I am honestly baffled you can say these criticisms about TFA and not TLJ.
There was no explanation to what was happening on screen in TFA!?! What was confusing? Whose motives were not explained?
*Leia, Poe, and the resistance wanted to find Luke to help them against Snoke.
*Finn wanted to escape the life of being a stormtrooper, had a thing for Rey, and was trying to find himself
*Rey wants to find her parents, but realizes she has a power, and a destiny that lies beyond life in a desert
*Han wanted to save his son
*The First Order wanted to take over the galaxy
*Snoke wanted to kill Luke to completely wipe out the Jedi order
*Ren wants to kill Luke for revenge and to please his master, and to live up to the grandfather he idolizes
How was any of this confusing, or not explained? How is any of this arbitrary?

How did TLJ write BETTER motivations for the characters?
*What does Ren want in TLJ?
*Why, and how does Rey go from trying to kill Ren in the first to trying to save him in TLJ?
*The rebels and first order are just playing a very simple, and stupid cat and mouse game
*Why is Luke, hero of lore, willing to give up on his family and the galaxy when he has the power to save them?

Lol how did TFA build no expectations?
*You had Ren still alive at the end..so can he redeem himself and become stronger? Will he ever live up to the Vader name?
*Who is Rey, and how is she that strong, that fast?
*Who is Snoke and how bad ass is he?
*With the Republic destroyed, what does it mean for the galaxy?
*What will Finn, a former Stormtrooper, what will his role be going forward as a rebel? Will he shed more light on the life and patterns of stormtroopers?
*Why did that yellow alien lady have Luke's saber?
*What the hell has Luke been doing on this secret Jedi island? What will be his role in the rebellion?
*How will Leia and the resistance fight the first order? Will the galaxy rally since those planets were destroyed?
*How much more about the Force, jedi, sith, etc are we going to learn?
WHAT DO YOU POSSIBLY MEAN THAT TFA LEFT NO EXPECTATIONS! ?!? There were innumerable directions that TLJ could have went thanks to the way TFA ended

AND what did TLJ leave us with?
What are we supposed to look forward to in the last movie of this series?
At the end of TLJ, Snoke is dead, Luke is dead, Leia can't be alive (or at least can't be part of the movie ), Phasma is dead, Hux is Ren's bitch, the knights of Ren are dead, there is no Jedi left to teach Rey of the Force, Kylo--the guy that Rey already defeated is the only bad guy left, Who the fuck cares about Rose?, the galaxy never came to the rebels aid, Finn could have had an interesting story arc about the stormtroopers--and now he will be boyfriend of Rose.
What am i missing here?

As i said in my previous post, i don't see how you can watch TFA, then watch TLJ, and say that TLJ makes sense. TLJ straight up contradicts, or flat out ignores plot points made in TFA. The 2 movies make little sense when you place them side by side
 
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I am honestly baffled you can say these criticisms about TFA and not TLJ.
There was no explanation to what was happening on screen in TFA!?! What was confusing? Whose motives were not explained?
*Leia, Poe, and the resistance wanted to find Luke to help them against Snoke.
*Finn wanted to escape the life of being a stormtrooper, had a thing for Rey, and was trying to find himself
*Rey wants to find her parents, but realizes she has a power, and a destiny that lies beyond life in a desert
*Han wanted to save his son
*The First Order wanted to take over the galaxy
*Snoke wanted to kill Luke to completely wipe out the Jedi order
*Ren wants to kill Luke for revenge and to please his master, and to live up to the grandfather he idolizes
How was any of this confusing, or not explained? How is any of this arbitrary?

How did TLJ write BETTER motivations for the characters?
*What does Ren want in TLJ?
*Why, and how does Rey go from trying to kill Ren in the first to trying to save him in TLJ?
*The rebels and first order are just playing a very simple, and stupid cat and mouse game
*Why is Luke, hero of lore, willing to give up on his family and the galaxy when he has the power to save them?

Lol how did TFA build no expectations?
*You had Ren still alive at the end..so can he redeem himself and become stronger? Will he ever live up to the Vader name?
*Who is Rey, and how is she that strong, that fast?
*Who is Snoke and how bad ass is he?
*With the Republic destroyed, what does it mean for the galaxy?
*What will Finn, a former Stormtrooper, what will his role be going forward as a rebel? Will he shed more light on the life and patterns of stormtroopers?
*Why did that yellow alien lady have Luke's saber?
*What the hell has Luke been doing on this secret Jedi island? What will be his role in the rebellion?
*How will Leia and the resistance fight the first order? Will the galaxy rally since those planets were destroyed?
*How much more about the Force, jedi, sith, etc are we going to learn?
WHAT DO YOU POSSIBLY MEAN THAT TFA LEFT NO EXPECTATIONS! ?!?

AND what did TLJ leave us with?
What are we supposed to look forward to in the last movie of this series?

As i said in my previous post, i don't see how you can watch TFA, then watch TLJ, and say that TLJ makes sense. TLJ straight up contradicts, or flat out ignores plot points made in TFA. The 2 movies make little sense when you place them side by side

oh you just don't get it.

l@nd0
 
Just watched Last Jedi finally. My reaction? Booooooooooo.

Extremely frustrating. Had the director ever watched a star wars film before?
 
I just wanna see Luke fuck with Kylo throughout the next movie. The whole "strike me down" threat made me think hell yeah haunt his punk ass

Such a pussy and they made him seem like this badass. Just because he offed Han and indirectly Luke I'm supposed to hate him...lemme guess he's gonna kill Leia in the next one to add to his "badassness"
 
Honestly it did seem rather strange to me, you go to the trouble of having Luke outfox Kylo like that but then have Luke die anyway?

The whole ending is rather amusing in the way it trys to paint it as a happy outcome when in reality the resistance is almost wiped out and Luke is dead. All that talk of "we are the spark" talk...



Yeah that "we are the spark," stuff was pretty pretentious. And you're right- the Resistance is small enough to fit into the Millennium Falcon and the trump card Luke expended all his effort and energy and life force to buy said group a few minutes. It was a clutch move, but he's dead.

Yet because the little kids are re-enacting Luke's one man vs. an army routine, we're meant to believe that now the supposed friends of the Resistance whose silence was deafening when they were most needed will rise against the machine.
 
Yeah, i would have been more OK with the astral projection if it didn't kill Luke.
Ive never heard of Force exhaustion.
Snoke was able to Force drag and choke Hux from another SHIP not close by, and connect the minds of Rey and Ren with no problem, but Master Jedi Luke dies from just projecting his image?

Force GHOST Yoda dropped in and made a lightning bolt


Maybe Luke just decided to punch his card and check out. Like I did my good deed for the decade, now for some rest.

Snoke was some next level force user shit. He absolutely dummied Rey and she's looked like a worldbeater since Episode VIII.
 
Maybe Luke just decided to punch his card and check out. Like I did my good deed for the decade, now for some rest.

Snoke was some next level force user shit. He absolutely dummied Rey and she's looked like a worldbeater since Episode VIII.
What normal person would check out on saving their family?
Let alone a guy like Luke? It's not believable.
If he had absolutely nothing, maybe, yea, but he still had a twin sister out there, friends, a nephew, people depending on him, and a Force threat that ONLY he could face.
The guy that tried to save DARTH VADER doesn't give up on his own damn family and the rest of the galaxy.

And what was the point about all of these conversations about failure from Luke, Rey, and Yoda in regards to Ren, only to have Luke give up in the end?

And Luke should be as equally strong in the light as Snoke was in the dark.
The way Snoke toyed with Rey, Rey shouldn't of been able to touch Luke in their stupid fight
 
I am honestly baffled you can say these criticisms about TFA and not TLJ.
I'm sure if you thought about it, you could come up with several reasons. Not the least of which: the ones I stated in the post you've responded to.

I see you take issue with the words arbitrary, motivation, and expectation -- and I will count those as a failure of communication on my part. But when I say expectation, I don't refer to the dangling threads that serve as groundwork for a following film. Don't get lost in the nomenclature, or the examples, or the confusion. Shit, what else is left after all that?

EXPECTATION: a story mechanism that would be akin, but not confined, to the set-up of a joke. The set-up primes audience expectation through establishing a limited number of outcomes and then arriving at one of those outcomes in surprising fashion. The reason you don't like Rey is she is set-up to do anything, and there is zero limit to her decisions and moreover there is zero stated explanation. The only thing you can expect from Rey, therefore, is that she's unbeatable. And this is a huge problem for many of you. TFA established a theme of "bad expectation" for the Rey character. You can explain her inevitable winningness however you want, but you still wouldn't/don't expect anything surprising. Right?

MOTIVATION: Through the mechanism of set-up and fulfillment, character and events are exposed. We like to think a motivation puts action into purpose, and that's true from a writer's standpoint. But from audience standpoint, motivation is only shown through action. Sure, a character can state it outright, but the statement is the action (and a terribly weak action). How the character meets and defies expectation is how motivation is revealed. The best way to reveal character is through impossible pressure. We find affinity with characters by how they deal with serious adversity. When Rey is OP she has no serious problem, thus no opportunity to reveal herself. This is why Rey's secret motivation, the one left unstated in TFA, is used against her by Ren, a violation of the secret she kept from herself.

ARBITRARY: When expectation and motivation are unclear to the audience, you have ARBITRARY.

Do you still need me to get into a point-by-point rundown in how TFA and TLJ succeed and fail?

Quid pro quo. Let's see if you can see your film the way I do, using the Socratic method. Once answered, pose your question. I only ask that you keep the scope of question even between us. Ask me a question that won't risk me having to write a long boring-ass answer that no one wants to read. I won't ask huge questions of you.

Here are the rules, you can only use evidence from TFA, and I shall try to confine my answers to TLJ but I think you'd prefer if I did "compare and contrast." Besides, what you want me to explain is different from what I'm doing, which is trying to get you to understand (but not necessarily agree). But if you're game to play, this may never even be a problem to our discussion.

Why does Finn like Rey? How do you know?

 
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