STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[BisexualMMA]

I've seen/heard a lot of people complaining that Force projection isn't cannon (though not really in this thread). It's a weak argument because the Force isn't a real thing (so who can really say what it can or can't do?) and also, Luke just did it in an official Star Wars movie therefore by definition it is now cannon.

That doesn't mean you have to like the scene of course.

Well, regardless of how someone feels about introducing such things, saying "it's in the new movie so it's now canon so that justifies it" is ridiculous.

 

[minute bull]

Canon film can't be allowed to canon? UNCANNY.

 

[DrBdan]

Well, regardless of how someone feels about introducing such things, saying "it's in the new movie so it's now canon so that justifies it" is ridiculous.

How do you know what is possible with the Force? We've seen people lift/move objects, Jedi mind tricks, Force lightning etc in the first six movies. Is that all there is? Did people get upset when the Emperor used Force lightning because it wasn't in the other movies?

You might hate the scene but arbitrarily putting limits on a fictional power doesn't make sense.

 

[minute bull]

You might hate the scene but arbitrarily putting limits on a fictional power doesn't make sense.

The Audience Rule of Diminishing Returns is everything that happens must never be lamer than what proceeds it, regardless of internal logic or narrative sense. Ex. A: TEMPLE OF DOOM v. LAST CRUSADE (Mr.s Jones, Jones, Lucas, & Spielberg).

 

[BisexualMMA]

How do you know what is possible with the Force? We've seen people lift/move objects, Jedi mind tricks, Force lightning etc in the first six movies. Is that all there is? Did people get upset when the Emperor used Force lightning because it wasn't in the other movies?

You might hate the scene but arbitrarily putting limits on a fictional power doesn't make sense.

You aren't even responding to anything to close to what I wrote.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Wait, does anyone actually care about the astral projection or is it more about Luke vaporizing for no apparent reason immediately after? I was fine with the hologram and thought it was cool, then got highly rustled by what followed.

 

[DrBdan]

You aren't even responding to anything to close to what I wrote.

I'm not saying being cannon justifies the plot points. But people (not you) have said it is a weak plot point specifically because it's not cannon. That's what Rian Johnson was responding to.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I'm not saying being cannon justifies the plot points. But people (not you) have said it is a weak plot point specifically because it's not cannon. That's what Rian Johnson was responding to.

I think expanding what The Force can do is fine, but I also think Johnson took a devil may care approach to doing so. He has a tendency to add too much stuff (eg. time travel AND telekinesis in Looper when time travel alone was all that was needed). Force projection AND surviving space vacuum / absolute zero AND long distance force mind-bridging, plus also weaponized light speed, all in one movie. I'd say he was more into making Star Wars his personal universe than expanding organically or incrementally on the existing lore.

Anyway, I'll agree that a given thing not existing previously doesn't automatically mean it can't be introduced in the future.

 

[D3THRONED]

Wait, does anyone actually care about the astral projection or is it more about Luke vaporizing for no apparent reason immediately after? I was fine with the hologram and thought it was cool, then got highly rustled by what followed.

him dying to it was dumb as hell. so many better ways to make fucking luke Skywalkers death more impactful.

 

[DrBdan]

I think expanding what The Force can do is fine, but I also think Johnson took a devil may care approach to doing so. He has a tendency to add too much stuff (eg. time travel AND telekinesis in Looper when time travel alone was all that was needed). Force projection AND surviving space vacuum / absolute zero AND long distance force mind-bridging, plus also weaponized light speed, all in one movie. I'd say he was more into making Star Wars his personal universe than expanding organically or incrementally on the existing lore.

Anyway, I'll agree that a given thing not existing previously doesn't automatically mean it can't be introduced in the future.

Yeah I agree 100%. He crammed a lot into the movie. It's hard to believe I walked out of a 2.5 hour movie thinking that it needed more time to breathe. It's like he had all of these ideas (and not all of them were great) and no one told him to save some for next time.

 

[Magooglie]

I have no problem with the introduction of new powers and new weapons, they just need to know how it impacts certain situations going forward. For example, Rey can never be tricked and trapped again. Since Luke found out how to force project by himself there's no reason Rey can't learn it and then just use it whenever she needs to find something out but there's a risk of her getting captured. There's also no more reason for the rebel fleet to be trapped since they can just sacrifice one ship to destroy an entire fleet with lightspeed ramming.

 

[TrueBias]

Canon film can't be allowed to canon? UNCANNY.

Ive never seen so much of this word until this movie. Its as if everyone just learned it and have been waiting for this shit show to blast it.

 

[minute bull]

Ive never seen so much of this word until this movie. Its as if everyone just learned it and have been waiting for this shit show to blast it.

When people try to sound smart, that's often the reaction.

 

[Bob Gray]

 

[Loiosh]

him dying to it was dumb as hell. so many better ways to make fucking luke Skywalkers death more impactful.

It was nowhere near as lame as Kirk's second death, though.

That was terrible.

 

[Loiosh]

Ive never seen so much of this word until this movie. Its as if everyone just learned it and have been waiting for this shit show to blast it.

You, clearly, have never spent much time in a comic book shop.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I just gave this movie a 2nd watch, and yep, it was still shit.

I watched The Force Awakens first, and then this one right after.
How can anyone watch these 2 movies and not see the big ass slew of problems that come with it?

The Force Awakens is a hands down a better movie. Despite all its flaws, it at least makes sense. Although it is a retread, the story progresses to a somewhat logical conclusion. A few brief commente on TFA are in the spoiler box

Spoiler

I also found that 2 of the chief complaints of TFA are a bit exaggerated.
Yes, Finn is a janitor, but that was mentioned once to Han at the end of the movie. It wasn't that big of a deal. And being a janitor didn't mean you didn't get military training. A cook in the army doesn't just cook if he's needed for combat. He would have had at least some basic training
Rey was a Mary Sue in TFA, but not to the level of TLJ. Even though her adeptness of the Force was ridiculous, the movie was acknowledging this. Han was surprised at how good she was about ship repairs, she watched Ren do Force shit and then tried it for herself--and he acknowledged her strength in the Force , and although she beat Ren in combat, people seem to forget how injured he was. I forgot that Chewy had shot him in the gut, and Finn landed a hit on his shoulder or arm as well

.

So the problem with TLJ is that it acts like TFA didn't happen.
Finn
He was an interesting character in TFA. We finally get to see the stormtroopers with a face, as a human, in him. That would have been interesting to follow.
But In TLJ, stormtroopers go right back to being faceless bad guys.
They were also CLEARLY trying to set up some sort of romantic relationship between Finn and Rey in TFA. She is the first real person he meets, and he risks his life to save her multiple times. They spend a lot of time together and build a rapport in TFA.
In TLJ, they're on screen together for like 30 seconds. And you now add a random new chick, Rose, to fall in love with Finn? Why? Why did we set up this relationship with Finn and Rey just to completely ignore it in the 2nd movie?

Rey and Ren
One of the few good things that TLJ did was the scenes with Rey and Ren.
BUT, while these scenes are good if you isolate them, they make ZERO sense if you watch TFA. The events in TFA make what happens in TLJ impossible.
Ren killed his father, he tried to kill Finn and Rey, he was apart of the destruction of MULTIPLE ENTIRE PLANETS. The last time Rey saw Ren, she was leaving him for dead in the snow. These 2 cannot contemplate joining or changing each other after this. It is completely inconceivable that Rey would think she could change Ren, and that Ren would be "their last hope". It makes absolutely no fucking sense. And there is no benefit to Ren to try and turn or join with the girl that embarrassed him in front of his master. You have to pretend that TFA didn't happen for this to make any sense.

Admiral Holdo
Was still as ridiculous as i remembered. Just completely unnecessarily cunty. After Poe gets KO'd by Leia, Holdo says, "he's a troublemaker...i like him" If you like him, what the fuck was the point of this silly "neenerneener im not tellin u the plan" game?
And considering how small this rebel group is, and that Poe is renowned for being "the best pilot" it makes no sense to introduce this new admiral character. It was Poe and his crew that took out the Death Star weapon in TFA, if Holdo is such a badass, where the fuck was she during such a crucial battle?

Leia
Her Jesus flying scene was still terrible

Yoda
Looked like complete shit

General Hux
He actually came off as menacing and formidable in TFA. He seemed like a serious fanatic that was fully behind Snoke. The rivalry between he and Kylo could have been interesting had it been allowed to develop. He was a complete bitch in TLJ. He got embarrassed by Poe, Snoke, and Rey.

The Yellow Alien chick
This lady was set up in TFA as this wise, old chick with tons of information. She had Luke's lightsaber, for fucks sake. In TLJ you only have her show up in the middle of a battle/"labor dispute", and she is too busy to help stop the destruction of Snoke's evil regime? What? Completely wasted character.

Luke
This is the biggest issue with the movie. The whole movie felt like it was just trying to undo the last movie instead of actually telling a story. Luke left a map to find him, the entire PURPOSE of TFA was to find Luke via a map he left...and in TLJ he went to this island to hide? But he left a map...? Luke was a miserable, whiny cunt the entire time. His reasoning makes no sense. His story made no sense.
His story would have made sense for someone like Obi Won, or Quigon, but not for Luke. Luke knew 2 Jedis. That's it. He didn't know the politics, or the pluses and minuses of a Jedi council. He didn't live in a world where the Jedis were a thing. It was a myth to many. Why would he have such strong feelings on something he really didn't know much about?
It makes no sense to blame the good guys for being killed by the bad guys. And his plan is to kill the Jedi religion? What does that actually accomplish? The darkside is still there. Palpatine and Darth Maul weren't created by the Jedi. It was "hubris" of Luke to think that it was the Jedi that were the cause to all of the galaxy's problems.
And how exactly is it "hubris" of Luke to think that he, a jedi master, the man who brought down Vader, how is it hubris of him to think that he could save his NEPHEW from going evil?

Final random thoughts
The movie also kept having Luke, Snoke, and Ren repeatedly say "the jedi must die" "old things must die", but all of the Rebel fighters repeatedly said "May the Force be with you " throughout the movie. So what is the message here?

This movie had bullet points that it wanted to hit, but didn't develop the story to logically get to these bulletpoints. It was obvious that they had jokes, images, and particular dialogues they wanted to include in the movie, but had no set up to get the movie to these points.

If you watch TFA and TLJ back to back, i can't understand how you could think TLJ makes any sense unless you're pretending like TFA didn't happen.

@shadow_priest_x
@Secret Agent
Serious question, i think the both of you said you disliked TFA, did you guys just act like the movie didn't exist when you watched TLJ?

 

[IamStryker]

I think expanding what The Force can do is fine, but I also think Johnson took a devil may care approach to doing so. He has a tendency to add too much stuff (eg. time travel AND telekinesis in Looper when time travel alone was all that was needed). Force projection AND surviving space vacuum / absolute zero AND long distance force mind-bridging, plus also weaponized light speed, all in one movie. I'd say he was more into making Star Wars his personal universe than expanding organically or incrementally on the existing lore.

Anyway, I'll agree that a given thing not existing previously doesn't automatically mean it can't be introduced in the future.

Leia survives death in the vacuum of space because "the force" but Luke fucking dies from force exhaustion? That was so fucking stupid.

 

[IamStryker]

Wait, does anyone actually care about the astral projection or is it more about Luke vaporizing for no apparent reason immediately after? I was fine with the hologram and thought it was cool, then got highly rustled by what followed.

The astral projection thing could have been really cool if it had been used better. Instead it's used for no good reason and kills Luke! Fuck this movie.

 

[moreorless87]

Honestly it did seem rather strange to me, you go to the trouble of having Luke outfox Kylo like that but then have Luke die anyway?

The whole ending is rather amusing in the way it trys to paint it as a happy outcome when in reality the resistance is almost wiped out and Luke is dead. All that talk of "we are the spark" talk...