Locked STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI v.2 (First Critics Reviews Are Here; George Lucas' Reaction)

[VanteMMA]

I have experienced not enjoying a movie as much after a 2nd or 3rd viewing. Actually, I speak out against Ep 4 - 6 being all that after god only knows how many viewings... A couple years ago, I watched 1 - 6 one after the other... & the original trilogy just seemed old & a bit stale to me for the first time ever. The lack of plot really stuck out to me after the incredible plot presented in 1 - 3.

Don't get me wrong... 4 - 6 will always hold a special place in my heart because they introduced me to the world & they do have great characters & a very ominous "big bad" presence... but I would say that the whole original trilogy have probably backed off a notch for me a hair... if I were to rate it.

Rogue One is an absolutely perfect lead in to Ep 4. I literally felt like I was watching Ep. 4 for the 1st time when I popped in in straight after seeing Rogue One in the theater. Emotionally I suppose... I obviously knew the story, but the sacrifice of Rogue One made me feel different things about Ep 4... & so Rogue One has kept its place for me.

I'm cool with Ep 7... I think a lot of people are jumping the gun & were expecting things that it didn't give them & so a lot of people are put off by it. I feel about the same as when I first saw it. I like it a lot. I think it will all make a lot more sense when it's tied into 8 & 9 & that the plot holes being filled will allow Ep. 7 haters to reflect back & finally find some appreciation for it.

They just got too excited for the first star wars movie in a long time to come out & were licking their chops with expectation but it was basically just a casual ride through the star wars universe. I think critics overlook the fact that a star wars movie is pretty much an automatic 7 out of 10 just for being in that universe & having the budget to make grand scenes n stuff. If you enjoyed it even a little bit, it's an 8 out of 10. I think this movie will edge up in everyone's rating system once it's tied into the next couple movies.

Completely with you on the original trilogy, they're not as good as they're made out to be. And the prequels aren't as bad as everyone says they are.

I also much prefer Rogue to EpVII.

You say that its unfair to judge VII without VIII and IX, but I don't agree. The movie fails because of its plotholes, Mary Sue Rey, Kylo Crybaby Ren and its unoriginality. Compare it to ep IV, and you can really see that VII fails in its inability to stand up on its own two feet as a movie. Even if its plotholes are explained in the next 2 films, the truth is that they shouldn't be necessary. IV's plot is expanded upon in V and VI, but if they never happened, IV would still work as a film.

 

[Lethal_Striker]

At least Lucasfilm is smart enough to fix their problems while the movies are still salvagable and in this case before they even go into production. It's better to take a little bit bad press and be able to save the projects. I bet in the future though that they stop trying to sign so many young directors who haven't proven themselves long term and go with more established directors.

I'm assuming that they're going to have Rian Johnson take over episode 9.

 

[moreorless87]

Completely with you on the original trilogy, they're not as good as they're made out to be. And the prequels aren't as bad as everyone says they are.

I also much prefer Rogue to EpVII.

You say that its unfair to judge VII without VIII and IX, but I don't agree. The movie fails because of its plotholes, Mary Sue Rey, Kylo Crybaby Ren and its unoriginality. Compare it to ep IV, and you can really see that VII fails in its inability to stand up on its own two feet as a movie. Even if its plotholes are explained in the next 2 films, the truth is that they shouldn't be necessary. IV's plot is expanded upon in V and VI, but if they never happened, IV would still work as a film.

Pretty much, its not really just plotholes your talking about but characters simply lacking depth, if Rey, Finn and Kylo are going to have stories of any depth then its going to be up to future films to really develop there characters as TFA didn't do much of that. Luke at the end of ANH was pretty well defined as a character and that helped ESB greatly as meant they could subvert expectations, with Rey and Finn there really are no expectations.

I can very much see why Disney went with Abrams for episode 7 and probably told him "do your Trek formula for us" as they'd spent 4 billion on Lucasfilm and this was a very low risk option. Doesn't mean its not disappointing to see Starwars deduced to an amusement park ride of a film, reasonably fun for one cinema viewing but as with Abrams Trek films lacking much depth for multiple viewings for me, something that the originals built there rep on.

 

[Scott Parker 27]

Episode 7 was pretty shitty, and they killed off the best character by far, Han Solo. Han brought a common every man character to the crazy ass alien filled universe that most people could relate to. I do not relate to any of the new characters in tfa, maybe poe?

 

[moreorless87]

At least Lucasfilm is smart enough to fix their problems while the movies are still salvagable and in this case before they even go into production. It's better to take a little bit bad press and be able to save the projects. I bet in the future though that they stop trying to sign so many young directors who haven't proven themselves long term and go with more established directors.

I'm assuming that they're going to have Rian Johnson take over episode 9.

It will be interesting to see just how the Han Solo film turns out with the switch, honestly I can definitely see Lord/Miller taking things too far in a comedy direction.

Rogue One was I suspect much less a case of dumping Edwards as was implied in the media at the time and more calling in Gilroy to help, he'd actually worked with Edwards in a similar role for Godzilla. Probably helped overall I would say since it sounds like they cut back on a standard revenge plot in favour of building up the two leads more.

 

[Lethal_Striker]

Hiring upstart directors with only 1 or 2 good movies might work for Marvel but Star Wars needs to just try to get name directors for the time being.

 

[JAEGERX]

nobody wants be known as a hack director by touching this garbage

 

[One MMA Fan]

Haha.. look at the people bashing the original trilogy.. or telling us Rogue One had better characters then TFA.

Better characters ? the heck... isn't it agreed upon by the large majority that the RO problem is the characters ? I haven't heard anyone praise them until now that is, sherdog has it all it seems.

I get the lack in story in TFA that complain is real but when you start telling me about Sue Rey and Rogue One has the better characters I tap out.

 

[Dragonlordxxxxx]

 

[BVG]

That jacket would have no back in it left....

 

[moreorless87]

Haha.. look at the people bashing the original trilogy.. or telling us Rogue One had better characters then TFA.

Better characters ? the heck... isn't it agreed upon by the large majority that the RO problem is the characters ? I haven't heard anyone praise them until now that is, sherdog has it all it seems.

I get the lack in story in TFA that complain is real but when you start telling me about Sue Rey and Rogue One has the better characters I tap out.

If I'm being brutally honest this kind of explains why this guy is doing Youtube videos and not cinema screenplays, he seems to lack pretty fundamental understanding on the subject that even I can pickup on as a layman. He does all the classic youtube tricks of the trade as well appealing to authority constantly and putting up each point he makes verbally in big letters onscreen.

That his video is supposedly based on character stories yet in that big segement towards the end where he looks at the Eadu section of Rogue One for some reason character motivation and advancement is almost totally ignored, all that matters is directly advancing the cause of finding the Deathstar plans. That's classic plot rather than character driven screen writing where as that section in Rogue One does obviously have a very significant effect on the stories of the two leads. Jyn's father is killed due to political double dealing but tells her to further his mission to destroy the DS and Cassian has the chance to assassinate him previously but ultimately refuses to take it. Indeed this section and the scene on the freighter afterwards are arguably the most important part of the whole film in terms of character.

These kinds of character stories are nothing new for SW though whatever these supposed "experts" look to tell us. ESB is held up as the best film of the series(that I think it still is) yet this is a film with non typical and quite subtle(for a blockbuster) character stories. We see Luke's story be a denouncement of his hung ho spirit as less than perfect in his lengthy scenes with Yoda and then his confronation with Vader. We see Leia shift from being a hardened emotionally repressed person to someone who acknowledges her feelings for Han again rather subtly built up across many scenes.

In his analysis of TFA you notice he's limited almost exclusively to discussing the early stages of the film exactly because they offer the comfortable character archtypes that supposedly make up good cinema. He's limited to very early interactions like Rey not selling BB-8 because very quickly the film moves past these kind of character driven moments becoming heavily plot focused with Rey dealing with one threat after another whilst having very little personal choice in how events unfold, an incredibly passive character who never makes any real choices and has no clear motivation.

Finn's character starts out as potential interesting but unfortunately the film largely wastes this potential, his defection is delt with much too quickly showing very little advancement and then hardly any consequences of his past. He doesn't want to kill for the first order and is upset at the death of a fellow trooper yet he's whooping at blowing a load of them to bits minutes latter and his background never comes up as a negative afterwards. He basically ends up shifting into a really clichéd "comedy sidekick who finds his courage" plot ala Rob Schneider in Judge Dread.

 

[One MMA Fan]

If I'm being brutally honest this kind of explains why this guy is doing Youtube videos and not cinema screenplays, he seems to lack pretty fundamental understanding on the subject that even I can pickup on as a layman. He does all the classic youtube tricks of the trade as well appealing to authority constantly and putting up each point he makes verbally in big letters onscreen.

That his video is supposedly based on character stories yet in that big segement towards the end where he looks at the Eadu section of Rogue One for some reason character motivation and advancement is almost totally ignored, all that matters is directly advancing the cause of finding the Deathstar plans. That's classic plot rather than character driven screen writing where as that section in Rogue One does obviously have a very significant effect on the stories of the two leads. Jyn's father is killed due to political double dealing but tells her to further his mission to destroy the DS and Cassian has the chance to assassinate him previously but ultimately refuses to take it. Indeed this section and the scene on the freighter afterwards are arguably the most important part of the whole film in terms of character.

These kinds of character stories are nothing new for SW though whatever these supposed "experts" look to tell us. ESB is held up as the best film of the series(that I think it still is) yet this is a film with non typical and quite subtle(for a blockbuster) character stories. We see Luke's story be a denouncement of his hung ho spirit as less than perfect in his lengthy scenes with Yoda and then his confronation with Vader. We see Leia shift from being a hardened emotionally repressed person to someone who acknowledges her feelings for Han again rather subtly built up across many scenes.

In his analysis of TFA you notice he's limited almost exclusively to discussing the early stages of the film exactly because they offer the comfortable character archtypes that supposedly make up good cinema. He's limited to very early interactions like Rey not selling BB-8 because very quickly the film moves past these kind of character driven moments becoming heavily plot focused with Rey dealing with one threat after another whilst having very little personal choice in how events unfold, an incredibly passive character who never makes any real choices and has no clear motivation.

Finn's character starts out as potential interesting but unfortunately the film largely wastes this potential, his defection is delt with much too quickly showing very little advancement and then hardly any consequences of his past. He doesn't want to kill for the first order and is upset at the death of a fellow trooper yet he's whooping at blowing a load of them to bits minutes latter and his background never comes up as a negative afterwards. He basically ends up shifting into a really clichéd "comedy sidekick who finds his courage" plot ala Rob Schneider in Judge Dread.

He is a youtuber... of course he isn't the authority to all things screenplay related.

In the same time anyone can use youtube, the not so smart and the very smart also, no one stopping them.. I picked this dude because he had some nice points and made a decent video and looks to be appreciated over 1 mill views.. never saw him before today.

I saw you in this topic putting down very solid youtubers that aren't trash or low quality like Red Letter Media and the younger Stuckman.. now by all means share to me some of your favorite youtube videos of reviews / analysis for Rogue One, this so called characters favorable reviews in favor of RO while TFA being the weaker product by comparison.

I'm legit curious about it, let's see those point of views and how much attention do they got.

Also you made out Finn to be Rob Schneider in Judge Dread level, damn you are tough on poor Finn.. the man came back for his friend, risked his life and was fighting the big bad of the movie 1 on 1.

 

[moreorless87]

He is a youtuber... of course he isn't the authority to all things screenplay related.

In the same time anyone can use youtube, the not so smart and the very smart also, no one stopping them.. I picked this dude because he had some nice points and made a decent video and looks to be appreciated over 1 mill views.. never saw him before today.

I saw you in this topic putting down very solid youtubers that aren't trash or low quality like Red Letter Media and the younger Stuckman.. now by all means share to me some of your favorite youtube videos of reviews / analysis for Rogue One, this so called characters favorable reviews in favor of RO while TFA being the weaker product by comparison.

I'm legit curious about it, let's see those point of views and how much attention do they got.

Also you made out Finn to be Rob Schneider in Judge Dread level, damn you are tough on poor Finn.. the man came back for his friend, risked his life and was fighting the big bad of the movie 1 on 1.

The problem with Youtube reviewers for me is that theres simply not a culture of informing viewers around them but rather of entertaining them. Granted thats not totally a bad thing and yeah I do often find RLM very amusing/charming but if I'm looking for high quality analysis of cinema I'd stick with more conventional reviewers.

The nature of these reviews as entertainment aimed at the widest possible audience does I think naturally shift them towards simplistic analysis and manipulation(some of them feel like creationist/flat earth stuff) thats going to have maximum appeal. That's not to say they never touch on real issues but very often I think they fail to truly grasp the success or failure of a film and have a tendency to push quite a narrow view of what they find acceptable.

I mean I disagree with there views very regularly but I'd value the opinion of say Mark Kermode or Peter Bradshaw over RLM when it comes to ambitious cinema anyday of the week, there considerably less likely to make me laugh though.

What I actually think Youtube is a much better resource for is indepth technical anlsysis like that excellent take on The Thing that was posted in this thread. Not aiming at a massive market and the kind of thing that conventional film academics might ignore or turn there nose up at but it has a very real impact on the quality of cinema.

 

[n...not crazy]

Done with Star Wars. Well, except for the de-specialized versions aka the original movies with no modification.

Force Awakens was somewhat palatable, but this neverending shit show is going to get really stupid really fast.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Completely with you on the original trilogy, they're not as good as they're made out to be. And the prequels aren't as bad as everyone says they are.

I also much prefer Rogue to EpVII.

You say that its unfair to judge VII without VIII and IX, but I don't agree. The movie fails because of its plotholes, Mary Sue Rey, Kylo Crybaby Ren and its unoriginality. Compare it to ep IV, and you can really see that VII fails in its inability to stand up on its own two feet as a movie. Even if its plotholes are explained in the next 2 films, the truth is that they shouldn't be necessary. IV's plot is expanded upon in V and VI, but if they never happened, IV would still work as a film.

@One MMA Fan I told you I wasn't the only one who felt this way about the original trilogy & prequilz. I knew if I held up the flag long enough, someone would answer the call.

Interesting POV on 7... but you gotta remember that Ep 4 might of been a one off. It waz the 1st one ever & it HAD to stand on it's own. I ain't mad at them for keeping us guessing. It's all good for me. I feel they are going to blow our mindz by the time this trilogy is over.

 

[Hitman81]

Good. Jurassic World was horseshit, I don't care how much money it made at the box office.

 

[One MMA Fan]

@One MMA Fan I told you I wasn't the only one who felt this way about the original trilogy & prequilz. I knew if I held up the flag long enough, someone would answer the call.

Interesting POV on 7... but you gotta remember that Ep 4 might of been a one off. It waz the 1st one ever & it HAD to stand on it's own. I ain't mad at them for keeping us guessing. It's all good for me. I feel they are going to blow our mindz by the time this trilogy is over.

Something is fishy you been pushing this prequels on us for some time now hmh.

Are you okay with Lucas directing EP 9 ?

 

[One MMA Fan]

Done with Star Wars. Well, except for the de-specialized versions aka the original movies with no modification.

Force Awakens was somewhat palatable, but this neverending shit show is going to get really stupid really fast.

I get you.. but all I'm saying is 1 last chance this next one make or brake time.. give this one a chance then decide if you call it or not.

I have high hopes and don't want fans to miss out on this one.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Something is fishy you been pushing this prequels on us for some time now hmh.

Are you okay with Lucas directing EP 9 ?

 

[One MMA Fan]

Answer the question sir.