STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Bob Gray]

Abrams himself is really the biggest problem there though, I mean Lucas didn't really know what he was going to do after ANH but that didn't stop that film being a really good setup for what followed building characters and setting. JJ on the other hand was just throwing out his action/humour/nostalgia rollercoster putting in very little legwork, just looking to play off of elements of the originals rather than giving the sequels a strong foundation to build off of.

Disney and Lucasfilm should have heeded the warning from Trek that any success under him would only be short term.

I couldnt disagree more. Abrams left lots of room to work with. Johnson just said "Nah. Alien tit milk."

 

[Frank23]

Does anyone go to trial for blowing up six planets simultaneously?

This should be addressed during the time skip.

 

[Frank23]

Does Maz Kanata get serious screen time in the new movie? The Last Jedi appearance was a dud.

 

[Eusung]

Abrams himself is really the biggest problem there though, I mean Lucas didn't really know what he was going to do after ANH but that didn't stop that film being a really good setup for what followed building characters and setting. JJ on the other hand was just throwing out his action/humour/nostalgia rollercoster putting in very little legwork, just looking to play off of elements of the originals rather than giving the sequels a strong foundation to build off of.

Disney and Lucasfilm should have heeded the warning from Trek that any success under him would only be short term.

I'd argue the opposite. JJ Abrams gave future films so much to work with. Knights of Ren, Jedi Temple, Kylo completing his training, Rey training (lol), expanding on Finn acting as a Storm Trooper turned Resistance member, Poe Dameron's evolution as a leader (knocking him down a peg to make Holdo look "strong" does not count).

Wow....so much to work with. In the end of A New Hope, Vader's fate is left ambiguous. The amount of damage the Empire has taken as a result of losing the Death Star and Tarkin --> left ambiguous.

 

[Eusung]

Does anyone go to trial for blowing up six planets simultaneously?

This should be addressed during the time skip.

No because apparently this galaxy is filled with spineless, selfish cowards.

That BS about "No one is coming to our rescue even though they got our signal" line pissed me off. It makes no sense. I would have rather heard "Help is on the way but won't get here in time to save us blahlabla - then Luke shows up"

That way it doesn't seem like the entire Galaxy is useless.

 

[moreorless87]

I'd argue the opposite. JJ Abrams gave future films so much to work with. Knights of Ren, Jedi Temple, Kylo completing his training, Rey training (lol), expanding on Finn acting as a Storm Trooper turned Resistance member, Poe Dameron's evolution as a leader (knocking him down a peg to make Holdo look "strong" does not count).

Wow....so much to work with. In the end of A New Hope, Vader's fate is left ambiguous. The amount of damage the Empire has taken as a result of losing the Death Star and Tarkin --> left ambiguous.

In ANH you get the lead characters very well setup in terms of their motivation and the setting itself is very clearly defined. In TFA you get a load of typical Abrams mystery boxes left for someone else to try and fill and the characters motivations and setting very poorly defined, to me that's basically lazy film making/writing that looks to give the impression of strong setup whilst actually kicking the can down the road.

The reality for me is Abrams gives some very early setup but then totally drops it and instead just shifts to a rollercoaster of action/humour/nostalgia that's far easier work. Honestly even using Luke at the end feels really cynical to me, basically stealing one of the big dramatic moments of the sequel for himself with very little setup.

For me the mans a fraud and a hack who shouldn't be allowed near any franchise of quality as he quickly seems to lower them to his level.

 

[moreorless87]

No because apparently this galaxy is filled with spineless, selfish cowards.

That BS about "No one is coming to our rescue even though they got our signal" line pissed me off. It makes no sense. I would have rather heard "Help is on the way but won't get here in time to save us blahlabla - then Luke shows up"

That way it doesn't seem like the entire Galaxy is useless.

Both films I think totally fail when it comes to setting up the galaxy as the kind of vast place it seems in the originals.

In the originals as well I'd say there taking on the atmosphere of classic westerns with the idea of grand horizons so limiting those horizons so much badly limits their potential.

They just give the impression is rushed lazy writing to me, the Plinkett review highlighted the way last Jedi tosses its characters around like spit balls.

 

[90 50]

Thought this was interesting, watching Star Wars films in a marathon , but in different orders to highlight different aspects.

I like the flashback, Machete and Obi wan orders lol.

https://www.gamesradar.com/which-or...ars-movies-in-it-isnt-actually-that-obvious//

 

[The Clinch]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...service-james-gunn-star-wars-slowdown-1145493

Star Wars slowdown looms?

JJ and GoT guys mentioned, but not shitbag Rian. Hmm?

 

[GtehMVP]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...service-james-gunn-star-wars-slowdown-1145493

Star Wars slowdown looms?

JJ and GoT guys mentioned, but not shitbag Rian. Hmm?

No Kathleen Kennedy mention either, so double promising news. Burn them both at the metaphorical stake!

I like how Iger mentioned that X-Men will fall under Marvel's umbrella. He knows the IP is in good hands with e. Surely he also knows that KK and Johnson are incompetent fools, and a detriment to Star Wars. I wonder who will be replacing her? She's been awfully quiet for months now.

 

[deviake]

Yeah it probably was the best of that kind of film but really it wasn't Trek anymore just a random action franchise and interest was dying.

I'd heard before watching the third that it was good, but I... I won't say I hated it, but I was bored and unimpressed at best. I found it to be super bland.

 

[moreorless87]

I couldnt disagree more. Abrams left lots of room to work with. Johnson just said "Nah. Alien tit milk."

Again theres a big difference between leaving "room to work with" and actually providing good setup in terms of building characters and setting.

All the talk that TLS makes TFA worse I think is very revealing that Abrams was depending on someone else to add in retrospective depth to his film.

 

[Bob Gray]

Again theres a big difference between leaving "room to work with" and actually providing good setup in terms of building characters and setting.

All the talk that TLS makes TFA worse I think is very revealing that Abrams was depending on someone else to add in retrospective depth to his film.

Again, I couldn't disagree more.

He wasnt depending on other people. He was depending on a trilogy having a second and third act. Thats not what johnson had in mind.

Most of the depth for the characters in the original trilogy came in the second and third installments. Think about it. Describe Darth Vader only using episode 4. You basically have "He choked a dude with his mind. Bad ass. He's very intimidating"

And boom, thats it. Thats his whole character. It isnt until the trilogy is done that the depth of the character has been mined.

Describe Han Solo using only episode 4. You basically have "He shot this dude first. Bad ass. Hes a loner but came back to help at the end because of the screenplay".

 

[moreorless87]

Again, I couldn't disagree more.

He wasnt depending on other people. He was depending on a trilogy having a second and third act. Thats not what johnson had in mind.

Most of the depth for the characters in the original trilogy came in the second and third installments. Think about it. Describe Darth Vader only using episode 4. You basically have "He choked a dude with his mind. Bad ass. He's very intimidating"

And boom, thats it. Thats his whole character. It isnt until the trilogy is done that the depth of the character has been mined.

Describe Han Solo using only episode 4. You basically have "He shot this dude first. Bad ass. Hes a loner but came back to help at the end because of the screenplay".

I didn't say Han's character was complex but it certainly works in ANH as a stand alone piece, he's a cynical mercenary who gradually gets converted to the good cause. Luke is a classic hero dreaming of adventure and following in his fathers footsteps via following a mystical guide.

I think a lot of the reason ESB was able to carry off its advancing of the characters and setting was exactly because ANH had given it a strong foundation to work with. TFA on the other hand basically leaves us with a load of questions, whats Rey's background? why did Luke Leave? how did Snoke and the first order rise? some might call that good setup but I tend to agree with the idea its lazy writing depending on "mystery boxes" to give the appearance of depth and puts the responsibility for actual depth onto what follows.

Again I don't think its at all a coincidence that the two major franchises Abrams has relaunched are both quickly floundering. The man just isn't that ambitious or talented a film maker, he's a marker of short term diversions akin to Micheal Bay who depends on nostalgia of established franchises for the appearance of depth.

 

[90 50]

I didn't say Han's character was complex but it certainly works in ANH as a stand alone piece, he's a cynical mercenary who gradually gets converted to the good cause. Luke is a classic hero dreaming of adventure and following in his fathers footsteps via following a mystical guide.

I think a lot of the reason ESB was able to carry off its advancing of the characters and setting was exactly because ANH had given it a strong foundation to work with. TFA on the other hand basically leaves us with a load of questions, whats Rey's background? why did Luke Leave? how did Snoke and the first order rise? some might call that good setup but I tend to agree with the idea its lazy writing depending on "mystery boxes" to give the appearance of depth and puts the responsibility for actual depth onto what follows.

Again I don't think its at all a coincidence that the two major franchises Abrams has relaunched are both quickly floundering. The man just isn't that ambitious or talented a film maker, he's a marker of short term diversions akin to Micheal Bay who depends on nostalgia of established franchises for the appearance of depth.

Could almost ask the same questions in a new hope.

What’s obi wans back story, why is he hiding in a cave.

How did the emperor and the empire come to rise.

Why does Vader wear a mask? Why do the storm troopers?

 

[moreorless87]

Could almost ask the same questions in a new hope.

What’s obi wans back story, why is he hiding in a cave.

How did the emperor and the empire come to rise.

Why does Vader wear a mask? Why do the storm troopers?

Obi Wan has some sense of mystery around him that can be built on but we know his basic background, he's a former Jedi who was a friend of Luke's father and is now offering Luke the chance of follow him.

The Emperor and the Empire in ANH are far less mysterious than the First Order I would say. The setup we get of them I think makes it very easy to imagine that they represent the subversion of a former democracy mirroring ancient rome and the rejection of the Jedi in favour of dark side force use. In TFA though we have the jump from the seemingly defeated Empire and Sith in ROTJ to the suddenly resurgent First Order and the appearance of Snoke.

Vader is basically setup as a typical villain who depends on charisma, there is obvious some sense of mystery around him that ESB builds on but ANH does not depend on this the way TFA does for Kylo and Snoke.

 

[deviake]

Could almost ask the same questions in a new hope.

What’s obi wans back story, why is he hiding in a cave.

How did the emperor and the empire come to rise.

Why does Vader wear a mask? Why do the storm troopers?

1)Obi Wan fought in the Clone Wars with Luke's dad. He was in hiding because of the Empire. These are established in ANH.

2)True, those are questions that could be asked, but they weren't pressing mysteries left purposely unresolved. We're immediately thrust into a story of Rebels vs Empire. The galaxy was a Republic, the Empire took over and is bad, the Rebels are trying to beat it. Simple but effective story that is immediately established.

3)Vader wearing a mask is superficial to the overall story. Same with Stormtroopers. They wear armor, you might be curious why but it's not pressing to the story.

There's questions you could ask after ANH, but there's nothing mysterious purposely left unsaid. It's a self contained story.

 

[moreorless87]

So much of TFA is just built on nostalgia as well, the big moment for example were the lightsaber flys to Rey, what does this actually mean to her character? I think the film basically depends on "the force was important in Lukes story so it must be important here" but there isn't the same buildup, to Luke the force represents the heroism and following in his fathers footsteps, to Rey its just this strange thing that seems to be impinging onto her life helping her escape the badguy that's constantly chasing her.

Part of the reason I think TLS looks to focus more on Luke than on Rey is that Rey has no motivation for seeking him out beyond just bringing him back to save the galaxy.

 

[Bob Gray]

I didn't say Han's character was complex but it certainly works in ANH as a stand alone piece, he's a cynical mercenary who gradually gets converted to the good cause. Luke is a classic hero dreaming of adventure and following in his fathers footsteps via following a mystical guide.

I think a lot of the reason ESB was able to carry off its advancing of the characters and setting was exactly because ANH had given it a strong foundation to work with. TFA on the other hand basically leaves us with a load of questions, whats Rey's background? why did Luke Leave? how did Snoke and the first order rise? some might call that good setup but I tend to agree with the idea its lazy writing depending on "mystery boxes" to give the appearance of depth and puts the responsibility for actual depth onto what follows.

Again I don't think its at all a coincidence that the two major franchises Abrams has relaunched are both quickly floundering. The man just isn't that ambitious or talented a film maker, he's a marker of short term diversions akin to Micheal Bay who depends on nostalgia of established franchises for the appearance of depth.

You could take the exact same synopsis for Luke and use it for Rey, only substituting "fathers footsteps" for "destiny" and "mystical guide" with "father figure".

That was easy.

And Fin is a guy on the wrong side of the fight that only realizes it through his own sense or morality.

Shit, Holdo is a fierce leader who demands the utmost commitment from those she leads and is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good.

See what you can do with a one line synopsis?

It works in ANH, sure, but that doesnt mean theres any depth. Part of the reason its a self contained piece is precisely because they had no idea if thered be a trilogy or not. With Force Awakens the whole point is to map it out for 3 parts, which gives much more freedom to put in the little tidbits that can be explained in subsequent steps of the narrative. Its literally part one of the story. Hell, part 2 takes place 30 seconds later. If you think of FA as act 1 of a 3 act story, having unanswered questions is pretty much expected.

I dunno if you can blame Abrams for things that happened he had nothing to do with. If they make a new Indiana Jones helmed by Alan Smithy and it tanks, you cant blame Speilberg.

 

[moreorless87]

You could take the exact same synopsis for Luke and use it for Rey, only substituting "fathers footsteps" for "destiny" and "mystical guide" with "father figure".

That was easy.

And Fin is a guy on the wrong side of the fight that only realizes it through his own sense or morality.

Shit, Holdo is a fierce leader who demands the utmost commitment from those she leads and is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good.

See what you can do with a one line synopsis?

It works in ANH, sure, but that doesnt mean theres any depth. Part of the reason its a self contained piece is precisely because they had no idea if thered be a trilogy or not. With Force Awakens the whole point is to map it out for 3 parts, which gives much more freedom to put in the little tidbits that can be explained in subsequent steps of the narrative. Its literally part one of the story. Hell, part 2 takes place 30 seconds later. If you think of FA as act 1 of a 3 act story, having unanswered questions is pretty much expected.

I dunno if you can blame Abrams for things that happened he had nothing to do with. If they make a new Indiana Jones helmed by Alan Smithy and it tanks, you cant blame Speilberg.

Does TFA really set up Rey as having a "destiny" and the belief that she has one? I really don't think it does, we only get some vague hints from Snoke and the vision that again depend on the mystery box style where someone else needs to fill in the depth. I mean I'm not excusing Johnson of many of the failings of TLS but yeah I think people vastly overpraised TFA, partly just as a backlash from the prequels, partly because its faults were not quite as obvious. That film did I think introduce a lot of the weaknesses we saw within the sequel, the poorly realised setting and characters, the confused tone, etc.

As I'v said before I tend to think of TFA not just as the sequel to Starwars but as the sequel to over a decade of the culture of prequel bashing, I mean yeah I don't rate those films highly at all but it felt like some fat geek pushing over a disabled boy and then proclaiming himself the greatest fighter on earth, TLS was the same fat geek getting the shit kicked out of him when he bought his own hype and tried to face down a street gang.